He he, no touch stack

Thanks to all for the kind comments.

I don't have a big ego. At all. Those who know me know that I don't care at all about who he's better, faster, more skilled, etc. Yes, it's over a decade that people can read my often striking comments on various internet forums, we could even say that I sometimes display a big mouth. But it's a game for me, nothing more. I would not have helped all those people to handle a deck of cards if I was such a bad person . Well, I think.

It's hard to be heard in that Magic/(pseudo)Gambling field, with so many arrogant people, full of themselves, failures for some of them. How many just fool themselves? A lot of jealousy as well, and it's useless to mention that 50% of them still mentally living in 1902 with Erdnase or 1930 with Walter Scott, it's kind of hard to bring some novelty...

During all those years I have been extremely disappointed by Magicians. They show very little culture for the most of them. And what about talent? For one Ricky Jay or one Derek DelGaudio, how many hundreds of failures thinking they have found out the next big thing because they moved their pinky 1/5 of an inch lower?

If you intend to be heard from that herd, you need a loud voice.

@AMcD: I know you have mentioned a number of times you only play in amateur and/or private game tournaments and if you don't mind I have a few questions about these games as you have peaked my curiosity. By the way, these are sincere questions on my part.

Is this a one game location you play in or are there several different games spread in various locations in your area that you are referring to? Are these commercial locations, like a warehouse or other nonresidential facility or are they held in someone's residence (garage, guest house, etc.)? I assume that if someone sets up a facility like this, there is a charge to play. Am I correct on that?

You state you like to become the center dealer, so evidently these games do not have center dealers to begin with and everyone deals at his turn until someone gets knocked out of the tournament and then that person can deal if he so desires. Is that correct?

On average, how many tables are spread at the beginning of the tournament and how many players per table at the start?

Do they have cameras monitoring the games or any surveillance at all aside from casual managerial supervision? Also, are these games played on regulation poker tables, usually designed for 9 or 10 player spots with a chip rack, or is some other table design or make-shift setup used?

When you act as center dealer, do you also take and pay the bets as part of the dealing procedure? Finally, what is the usual buy-in dollarwise.

I really am quite curious about this as I am sure other members are also. I have not played in private games for more years than I care to remember and the private games were somewhat easy to beat, at least compared to casinos games, especially if using something like a riffle stack which is a very safe way to go. Are the player knowledgeable or are they pretty much uninformed?

Just casual perusal of your previous statements leads me to conclude that in a setup such as this, dumping one's chips to an accomplish to get knocked out of the tournament early and then taking over the center dealer function combined with riffle stacking would be a safe and deceptive way to beat these games. Am I correct on this?

Of course, I know these locations are not patrolled by 350 pound, all muscled security guards wielding lead filled clubs, holding back ravenous guard dogs and if caught cheating you are not thrown into a live alligator pit, but aside from that I am sincerely curious and if you have the time or desire, would appreciate some clarification as described above.

Once again, these are sincere questions and not a setup to trap or criticize you in any way...I am really curious.

Different place-different time. At the time period I was discussing, ONLY draw poker was allowed in the legal card rooms in California, including Gardena, and center dealers did not come into use until about the late 70s - 80s or thereabout as I recall.

I don't know how old you are but this was all probably before your time.

Conditions of that time period were not the same as they are today, and the conditions of today will not be the same 20 years from now.

...and so the world spins. I don't make the rules...just spin along with it.

Cag, there are so many environments... it would take a book! Anyway, here are a few things.

I played about everywhere. From student games to pub leagues. From £5 buy-in to probably 50 times more. But I preferred £20 or £50 buy-ins, people are less cautious, there is a more friendly atmosphere. And when you can win the first prize, £1,000, or £1,500 is always welcome.

Obviously, the number of tables depends on how many players were registered for the tourney . In some pubs, clubs, I think we had up to 70 or 80 people? But on weekly bases, we were more likely 20 to 30 players. So, from 3 to 5 tables in general. As I said earlier 7 people on average per table, up to 8. Unless big tourneys, I don't remember having played with 9+ players. The game would be too slow. It's amateur world, people wanna play a maximum of hands. And amateurs have difficulties to handle a deck of cards properly, therefore, it's best to have 4 tables of 6 players than 3 tables of 8 players. Less cards to deal for amateurs.

In some leagues, you play the finals in casinos, clubs, so, maybe there were some cameras somewhere, but I doubt they were running. We just used the premises, it had nothing to do with the casino itself. About the material, in England there is always a table with a decent mat, good quality chips, etc. Very often folding poker mats, with cupholders sometimes. Note that I rarely saw drinks allowed at the table. Nothing more annoying than a beer spilled on the mat... About the cards, always plastic ones. Quality varies, from absolute awful stinking Chinese ones to Copag or Fournier. I rarely came across KEMs.

The center dealer is for the final table. Everything is possible. Someone not playing, the faster card shuffler who has been busted out, a pro from a casino, you name it! Yes, the center dealer handles the final table. He checks the blinds, the bets, etc.

In private games it's different. If the game is hosted in some private property, you have as many environments as individuals! You can play for £800 on a kitchen table to £50 in a luxury lounge .

Game procedure are not that permissive. Everyone has seen a professional game on TV since 2003. So, plastic cards, chips, cut cards, etc. And riffles only allowed. If someone is a very beginner, someone else shuffles for him. In private game, it's not always the case. I have seen overhand shuffles, no cut cards, etc.

Well, amateur world has so many different environments... I hope you have an introductory picture now lol.

Knowledge of the players... well. Old timers are not stupid. In most places I played you would not have fooled anyone with a bottom deal or an horrible haymow stack. Or a magician second deal. Tons of grips in the amateur world, sure, but no Erdnase or mechanics grip. They have no idea, in general, about riffle stack. They don't think you can do it that fast. So, it's a wonderful weapon. The most common ploy is collusion though. There are not professional games, but because some precautions are taken, it's not easy to use sleight of hand for cheating. Both hands released cut, deck always in the table, cut card, etc. So, collusion, signalling is the key weapon. I have seen a few marked decks as well. But many old timers know the basics about marked cards.

You got it right. You dump your chips to a partner (if he is at your table) and you arrange for being the center dealer at the final table. It's an interesting ploy because if you can't play Poker, you'll have troubles to reach the final table . But most people just can't play Poker. They know nothing about odd, positions, etc. So, even with 40 or 50 players, it's not that hard to reach the last 7-9 players. But there, you usually met old timers... It's been a feast will all those Internet players who came in a pub to check their skills hahaha. So many people don't have any knowledge about how to play cards. You don't even need to cheat.

About the dangers, well, you can get punched or, as I am a foreigner in the racist England, it could have been a more severe beating. But in most cases, you are thrown out and asked to never come back. It also depends who you are playing with. Sometimes (often in England), someone is drunk. Sore looser at times as well. You can run across a drug dealer too, who play a tourney just to occupy his empty life. I've been caught false dealing a long time ago, but never while stacking.

About the money, everything is possible. I have seen people exchanging car keys in the past. According to my experience, I'd say I prefer to cheat wealthy people. There feel so arrogant, so superior. But rarely you meet one playing cards properly. As a key rule, the more a card player suck, the more he thinks he is a good player! Aggressive players are easy target too. They're on tilt very fast. Some Internet players had good Poker skills, but they had no idea about playing cousins or other ploys like that. Very easy to beat them.

I could talk about all this for hours. I hope the lack or organization in my answer won't be a problem, I just throw words. Note that playing cards before 2000 and after is very different.

If it's of some interest for some of you, in the future maybe I'll detail the tons of techniques I used or that I ran across into. Don't expect high level sleight of hand. But signalling was very sophisticated at times. False shuffling and attempts to bypass the cut were the more common. In the past, some bottom dealing, but a decent bottom deal is very very difficult to do and you catch the guy quite fast. Another thing, I think the most aware players I played were poor. Never play poor guys, they protect their £20 like gold, lol. They stare at your hands when you shuffle, ask a new deck when a microscopic scratch hits the back of one card, etc. Wealthy guys just don't care. They lose £100, they just bring another hundred.

Nice stuff Arnold. I hope we see more of it.

Little confused by "playing the cousin" lingo.

@Peterson

It means playing together. It's a funny thing. It's a form of natural cheating. For instance, a new player comes into your pub, from another city, street, etc. Nobody says a word, but naturally everyone is gonna play against him. Locals are not really teaming up, they just don't play against each other, everyone plays against the newcomer. I think it's also called playing local. tommy knows that kind of slang better than me, maybe he will be more specific about it.

Thanks Arnold. That's a very interesting and informative read. Did you get caught dealing seconds or bottoms? Did you mess up on a deal or some experienced players just identified it was false?
Looking forward to your posts of other techniques you used.

Hey AMcD,

Nice to have you back.

Thanks for the informative post. It is refreshing to read about real world ploys once in a while!

TH

Oh, I think many of you already knew that story. It's a very ridiculous one. I simply dealt the cut card...

It was a student game at a very wealthy student home, no danger at all. Lot of booze, a couple of sexy chicks around the two tables, lot of noise. And 99% of people knowing nothing about cards. Not much money, probably like $200 at best to take. It was (and I think it is still) the perfect type of game for "practising", for trying new things live or improving your techniques with your accomplice. Beginning of the years 2000, the rush of Hold'Em.

God only knows why, I decided to practice Greek dealing. I managed to have my partner on my right. And at some point I really messed up and dealt the cut card. Quite an embarrassing moment lol. Say it requires a lot of psychology to explain what happened...

Useless to point out that I NEVER tried any Greek deal later in my life. N-E-V-E-R.

About chicks. Well, an old timer or a seasoned player wouldn't mind if a scantily clad woman is at the table. Personally, here, in UK, women have so little clothes on when they go out, that you get used to it lol. But with amateurs, students, week-end players, it's a nice distraction! Some would do anything to show their manhood (no pun intended) at the table, to impress the girl(s). They are the best preys. They do everything and nothing. We should campaign for having scantily clad women at any Poker table, I'm telling you!

@AMcD: Excellent post on the playing conditions in your world and I much appreciated your thorough answers to my query. Seems like there are many opportunities in that environment assuming of course the money is there.

This is really a foreign world to me as my experience with private games, back in the day, was different in many respects so it is nice to read about another side to the "card playing" environment.

Interesting observation on "poor" players protecting their meager stake. Fortunately, I played with fairly well-heeled people in private games and money was never really an issue with them. They were observant but were mostly there for a good time and camaraderie with their peers.

Really liked your dealing the cut card from the bottom. That is a new one for me and it would have given almost anything to see you extricate yourself from that predicament. Greek deal under fire? Seriously. Now that takes guts or at least a certain cavalier attitude towards one's physical well-being.

These type posts are very interesting to read, elevate the BB with worthwhile content and we could use more of them. Maybe others could share their experiences along these lines. Who knows, I may even share some of mine although that would have to be done somewhat judiciously.

Once again, thanks for the timely and detailed response. It was appreciated and enjoyable to read.

But please, no more Greek deals under fire. We want you around for a while.

Yes Cag, I would certainly appreciate that other people post their experience.

About poor/rich. For sure wealthy people are the best individuals to play with. Mostly for cash games. I rarely played ones, as my thing is really tournaments. But I have seen people for whom money wasn't a problem re-buying again and again. £500 buy-in, busted out? No problem, get another buy-in. Busted out again? I take another one. Just nuts. I suppose that the private games you mention very often have people like that. When people don't care about the money, they play for other reasons. Passing time, pride, etc. I have friends who played such private games, but buy-ins were not £500, £5,000 or even £10,000 instead. 100% of them hire professional dealers. Note that I have been asked to be dealer in many games like that. But I'm afraid we can't talk about this publicly.

Cheating is really something depending on your environment. What I liked in those amateur games is that it changes every time! Of course, some underlying rules were met, decent mat, plastic cards, cut cards, standard regulations, standard blinds schemes, etc. But people were different. When you play in France or Spain or England, it has nothing to do. Yes, you play Hold'Em, but that's the only common link. People don't act the same, don't react the same way. It was fascinating to meet all those cultures.

Another thing people have in common, lure of money! I found very easy to cheat/beat players obsessed by money. They lose their control, they go on tilt, etc. And what about all those idiots playing with money they can't afford to lose... One thing I would not have enjoyed if I had played in casinos is all those rail-birds, chasing for some cash. Every time I've been in a casino, I saw many of those ***ed souls. In my world, very little people played money they couldn't lose. In some cash games, maybe. But the worst I have seen is people losing their (luxury) car.

I never understood what happened when I tried Greek dealing. Of course, it was an easy game, provided we can call it a game! Students, discovering Hold'Em... But years after I still don't understand. The Greek deal is absolutely useless. Very hard to master and I doubt someone can do it more or less invisibly under real circumstances, amateur or professional places. Stacking, signalling, marked cards, etc., are much more efficient. In Hold'em, at best you're gonna deal two good hole cards. Greek dealing community cards would require balls of steel in my humble opinion. It's probably one of the most stupid things I have attempted at a card table. Note that I was lucky to try it at such a lax game.

Here's another anecdote. I'll stop here, I post too much since I'm back. An amateur cheat I knew used it (the Greek Deal) in some private game, quite a serious one. A few thousands in the middle. He told me he was happy because he got the money (cheating alone, another stupidity...) and I was quite surprised. First, his technique was far from being flawless and, again, based on my experience, using the Greek deal in a real game is a 100% guaranty for getting into troubles. He disappeared from my MSN (yeah old good time lol) the day after. A few weeks later, I managed to talk to him again. Guess what happened? The guys didn't say a word during the game, but they understood he cheated them. They found him in the street the day after and burned one of his hand with some acid. Yet, it was really an amateur game, no bad guy involved, no drug dealer, etc. But some people don't like to be stolen.

The lesson of all this, don't Greek deal . I know some Magicians are gonna be very disappointed, but I'll throw another one: don't center deal either lol.

In strip deck draw poker one can leave trips on the bottom and end up drawing them sometimes. I was born just after the war when there were no casinos here in England and up until the 1980s most poker games were underground when them old school games were played - which were relatively small. The big games were Chemmy gambling parties. A gambling party was legal, so long as one did not hold more than one party at the same house in a six month period, thus there were floating games.

When the government introduced tax on betting here in England my uncle, a professional, decided to move and went over to the USA among other places in the 60s on a fact finding mission and he visited Gardena. He spoke, when he returned here, about draw being illegal there in the clubs as I recall but having just read this I am not sure now what he said; http://articles.latimes.com/1985-08-05/l......ker-game

Yes, I got it backward, sorry. http://blogs.dailybreeze.com/history/201......d-clubs/

@tommy: Good find on the history of card clubs in Gardena. The picture shown of the card room of the Gardena Club brought back old memories. Eventually gambling on Indian reservations in the US changed quite a bit as far as the number of casinos in existence as well as the variety of games offered. Seems like there is a casino on every corner, much like gas stations and convenience stores. Well, maybe that is a exaggeration but they seem somewhat omnipresent.

Just remember tommy, you can't believe everything your uncle says...but continue to respect your elders regardless.

Https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1467136719

I have not read this book but some say it is quite good and might interest the old school boys.

Hey all
First time poster, some time lurker

@AMcD: Your post was a fantastic read. I used to play in very similar situations, post Hold 'em explosion

My experience is limited to collusion attempts with less than disciplined individuals
There was a string of time where we had some success in small stakes cash games and tourneys

We knew about card moves, but had no ideas how to perform them. We also had enough sense to realize that it wasn't worth the risk, given our lack of skills
So we divised a very, very crude but effective method of signaling (we thought we were revolutionizing the whole cheating bit...yeah, I know...)

But yeah, it did win us a few hundred dollars over a very short time

But then, ego kicked in
And some wanted attention (we were 3 working together)

Some became brazen and started to allude that they had "ways" to win the games to whoever would listen

I immediately disassociated
Never trusted anyone at the table again after that

I resumed playing straight up, which also turned out ok for me

Risk was very little back then
Low awareness of proper table etiquette from the players, most of them half drunk at all times, low stakes
Worst case, a beating that would have gotten interrupted almost immediately
Scuffles happened a few times(to others) but it's almost like no matter what the allegations were, no one wanted to admit that cheating could occur
Not to them, not in their joint, not in their safe place
So nothing ever came of it

That was over a decade ago

Now I practice sleight of hand to relax at home and play with friends for 20$ while drinking too much scotch

Nothing too exciting, but it was fun times

P.S.: Demo or not, I'm adopting that practice drill!

Hi Card_Flips, welcome here!

Yes, teaming up is always risky. The best, to me, is to play with one accomplice. Of course it's not the most efficient way, but when you are 3 or more, if there is serious money involved, soon or later there will be problems. People talking, people showing off, etc.

Yeah, that's exactly what happened
But with what most would consider pocket change

As soon as 100-200$ takes each were consistent, the showing off started

Was stupid and I should have known better than to associate with one of them in particular

Oh well, live and learn