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Larry Barnowsky Inner circle Cooperstown, NY where bats are made from 4770 Posts |
I'm with Curtis regarding keeping things simple. I do a standup C/S/B using dollar size coin(s) and a patter story about a Chinese immigrant. The changes are startling to the spectator and appear instantaneous using an original move I developed. The spectators don't have to be told which hand which coin is in since they only see one coin at any time. This fits well with Ortiz's rule of "Don't make the spectator work hard". I'd be glad to show anyone from the Café this routine at this week's Cape Cod Conclave (April 16-18).
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Review King Eternal Order 14446 Posts |
I love Doc Eason's version ( based on wagner and sheets ). The last sequence the transformation happens in the spectators hand. With proper aduience management, there is little risk.
Noting can beat the magic happening in their hands. It's so powerful when you see their expression.
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been" ..........John Greenleaf Whittier |
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Ferry H.P. New user Belgium 95 Posts |
Thanks everyone.
As I said before, I will watch Doc's DVD before buying anything, but don't worry, I always construct a personal routine and patter. Mr. Green, your "In The Trenches" DVD is also on my wishlist. I've heard the effect on it isn't a pure Copper/Silver/Brass one, but can also easily be done with the C/S/B coin set. I know there are other manufacturers besides Johnsons, also around $50. It looks like there are also versions around $23. I do mostly cards and I don't know much about coins and gimmicked coin sets. I'm particulary interested in C/S/B Transpo, because of all those great reviews I've read. Euro coins are still fairly new, and there aren't many good euro-gimmicks available. Last time I visited my magic shop, they had a new, good looking load of all different euro coin gimmicks like cigarette through, folding, etc. I didn't have the time to check them out, I will next time. The power of C/S/B coins would be that they all come from different countries around the world, looking all very different. So I think there is no need for a euro set. If the coins were all euro currency, it would diminish the effect. I think.
Ferry H.P.
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doug brewer V.I.P. 1142 Posts |
I'll second Paul Green's version, as it is very commercial and a real fooler.
However, on a side note, I am currently reading Darrin Cook's book, As the Crow Flies, which received a very good review in Genii this month. One of the most fascinating sequences I've seen in a long time is Darrin's CSB routine where the silver coin changes to the foreign coins instantly IN THE SPECTATORS OPEN HAND. Brilliant and something I'm going to work on. |
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jerdunn Inner circle 1735 Posts |
I always like to recommend James Lewis's utterly clean and baffling handling, "Foreign Exchange," which is taught on his Million Dollar Mysteries video.
It uses a coin purse, so you never go to your pockets (a weakness that gives spectators an explanation for the magic) and you never reveal extra coins (a weakness of Doc Eason's routine, in my view). Instead, you get three startling transformations -- one accomplished with just a wave of the hand. Another change is done one-handed. Just carry the little purse with the coins inside, and you're ready to go any time, anywhere. Cheers, Jerry |
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Sean Macfarlane Special user 880 Posts |
Thanks Curtis for the feedback on the Scotty York routine. After reading it I felt itmimdated by the amount of work it required and basically wondered if it was at all practical in a real world setting.
I was thinking that it might come across as a movy routine where the spectators might not know how it happened but still had the feeling that something tricky was happening even though they couldn't quite put their finger on it. Their some serious finger flicking going on in that routine. After reading it I rememered your routine and how some of the sequences/transpositions resembeled what I read in the notes. You answered me with all the info even though I didn't ask a specific question...thank you. I guess the deeper question is; with routines that require so much work(sleights) it requires a lot of practice to get them to look like real magic. Do you feel that audiences can tell that something fishy is going on? It might still be beautiful to watch but not quite magical. Where as with a gimmick you can achieve sometimes a much cleaner effect and defy all explanation (If they don't suspect the coins that is.) I have all your videos and DVD's and enjoy your work a lot, you have some serious skill. However I have found that there can be too many adjustments within the hands with some of your routines. What kind of feedback have you recieved from lay audiences rather than magicians? Cheers |
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Mike Wild Inner circle NY, PA, TX, MA, FL, NC 1290 Posts |
Those are some extremely good observations and comments Sean. I feel the same way that you do about the gaff vs. ungaffed and more advanced handling, and the magical nature of each version. There's always the "Too Perfect" theory, pertaining to gaffs, but in general, I think the gaff handling can offer a better, cleaner, and more magical spectical for the audience.
Although I'm sure there is another, very good side to that argument. Best, Mike |
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lefty New user Paris, France 17 Posts |
Hi,
I explained that I used the gimmick C/S/B. I used it before I saw Curtis' version. his "Triple Alliance" is more difficult but you need only one C/S and so you can do it with the coins you want, euro for example because you can find a C/S euro version. Thank you Curtis for your job I love the Kurtz's version of Two Coppers One Silver, with cards. Lefty, from Paris,France
"May The Magic Be With You..."
www.lefty-miracles.com |
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Sean Macfarlane Special user 880 Posts |
I sometimes wish I had my original layman eyes to get that feeling of amazement from most of the magic that I've seen. These days I'm aware of the little tells that idicate certain sleights. When watching other magicians I pick up on the little things and I wonder if laymen do too. I like to assume they do, so that I can continue to improve my technique. I have received some excellent feedback from laymen from time to time.
Having said that though, I did get floored big time by Dean Dill at last years LVMI,...it was a card trick though. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Re: "I guess the deeper question is; with routines that require so much work(sleights) it requires a lot of practice to get them to look like real magic. Do you feel that audiences can tell that something fishy is going on?"
Sean that is a great question. You don't get the badge for DOING the moves. You get the badge for something deeper than the usual they felt magic happen... this one comes from your inner knowledge that YOU MADE IT HAPPEN ON YOUR OWN. It's like taking the training wheels off your bike. As a guideline, the stuff should look magical first. The methods involved are secondary. The audience should have no inkling about there being any methods. The two for one transposition is a strong effect. Has anyone tried doing a three for one transposition using the purse to finish the routine?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Mike Wild Inner circle NY, PA, TX, MA, FL, NC 1290 Posts |
I've been using the purse a lot lately for some reason, but not for a three to one transpo... just as a ditch, for misdirection, and as a cover... all the usual suspects, so to speak.
Mike |
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Curtis Kam V.I.P. same as you, plus 3 and enough to make 3498 Posts |
As Jonathan said, Sean, good question.
My answer's pretty much the same as Jon's, as well. The "Palms of Steel" presentation, plus the fact that the material can be technically demanding, may have misled viewers. I think some magicians got the impression that the moves were the point of the "Palms" material. That is not the case. The routines were written in order to create a superior magical experience, not as an excuse to show off clever sleight-of-hand. The premise was NOT "it's magic because it's hard to do". The idea was to explore what's possible when difficulty is irrelevant. So, I suppose the answer is, no, I don't think the audience feels any appreciation for a move well done, at least I don't expect them to. I do feel that a performer's "vocabulary of gestures" (to use Gary Kurtz's term) can be graceful or not, appropriate or not, just as one's verbal vocabulary can be. And, when either vocabulary gracefully and effectively matches the situation, I do believe that the audience appreciates that. To get to specific examples: Does difficult material always look fishy to the audience? No. Not when it's done well. See Rene Levand, Al Goshman, Martin Nash, or Geoff Latta. If it looks fishy, it either wasn't done properly, or the technique is poor in design. If the work on my DVD's appeared fishy to you, I apologize, that certainly wan't my intention. Of course, as you mention, some things appear fishy to magicians, but not to laymen. For instance, in the routine under discussion, I use the Tenkai pinch. The display position for that concealment may catch the magician's eye, however, I do not think it looks fishy to the layity. Are there times when a gaff can accomplish an effect more cleanly than sleight of hand? Yes. In fact, the creation of cleanliness is probably the most effective use for any gaff. Do audiences always appreciate cleanliness? Not always. Are there other considerations besides cleanliness? Sadly, yes. If I can approximate a gaffed effect through sleight of hand, I will opt for the sleight of hand approach. The advantages are: a) pocket space and organizational effort, b) reliability and maintenance, and c) by adding to the repertoire of effects I can do with the coins I already have in play, I enhance my ability to respond to the moment, and stay connected to the audience. All the above being said, I am less concerned about "tells" than some. They should be eliminated, but I think a lot of this sort of effort only pays off when you're performing for other magicians. Consider the Goshman toss vanish. We live in a world where, when you do it right, spectators will actually see a coin where there is none. Now, we don't just enter that world for the purpose of appreciating that move. We're always in that world. Our minds are constantly filling in blanks like this, and smoothing over reality by not noticing the irrelevant. I find that many of what magicians consider "tells" tend to fall into the background noise. Still, since it often takes so little to eliminate them, it's a good idea to do so when you can. Thank you for the feedback regarding adjustments. I'll have to look back at the DVD's and see if they're visible to magicians (which I'd rather they not be) or even to laymen. (which they definitely should not be) I don't put adjustments in without good reason, and I have tried to eliminate from the DVD material anything that I do for ideosynchratic reasons. Perhaps you could PM me with moments you've noticed? Jonathan, when you're talking about the 3 for 1 transpo + purse, can I assume you're referencing Shiego Takagi's handling?
Is THAT a PALMS OF STEEL 5 Banner I see? YARRRRGH! Please visit The Magic Bakery
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
No familiaar with Takagi's work Curtis, it just seemed most logical to end the c/s/b with all three coins becoming the purse, and the coins being found on the table.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Curtis Kam V.I.P. same as you, plus 3 and enough to make 3498 Posts |
Jonathan, I get it now, the purse itself transposes with the coins. Sounds like fun. The closest I've seen is David Stone's one-coin routine which ends up with a surprise appearance of the purse taht was on the table. The coin ends up inside.
FWIW, the Takagai routine transposed a pursed copper coin with three silvers held in the left fist.
Is THAT a PALMS OF STEEL 5 Banner I see? YARRRRGH! Please visit The Magic Bakery
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Stuart Hooper Special user Mithrandir 759 Posts |
I think Curtis has hit upon something here which has been bugging me for a little.
His ideas about slieghts/gaffs are quite interesting. Given the choice of an effect in gaffs, or in pure slieght of hand, how many of you choose the skill? On this forum, people are always talking about DVD's books, tricks, and things which all use slieght of hand. However, in a few threads about gaffs lately, it sure seems a lot of people come out with statements like "oh, without my ] I'd be lost," or "the c/s coin is a must have", ect. Sorry if I'm changing the subject here, but why not? I'm not a purist, I love gaffs, just don't have much access to them. So who follows the Townsend's and Kam's, which of us do most if not all our coin stuff with slieght of hand? Note, also, that I despise "finger flicking". However, increasingly, I am being shown that it is possible to perform slieght of hand, that doens't look like you're being tricky, it looks like MAGIC is happening. I used to think Gaffs were much cleaner than slieght of hand. Now, I feel MUCH CLEANER when I'm not using any gaffs! |
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CardMaker Inner circle Ludwigsburg/GERMANY 1063 Posts |
Isn't it a sort of sleight of hand (or call it skill) to ring in (and out) the gaff/gimmick?
Just a thought.
CardMaker/Bernd Maucksch
Finest gaffed cards for magicians |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Worrying about ringing in gaffs suggests you or they want to stop the performance and grope the coins. If they want to stop and examine the coins... you are doing something un-magical and they are looking for technology.
Gaffs or not, it's the magic that counts. The cleanest one-handed coin change I've seen uses a gaff. The second cleanest uses my eg2eg move. Which to use depends on the setting and routine. The thing that bothers me about most gaff applications is the sound of the thing hitting the table or floor. That tinny rattle... anything but the ring of a solid coin makes me uncomfortable. Just my perspective.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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TheAmbitiousCard Eternal Order Northern California 13425 Posts |
I agree with jontown and the noise problem making me sweat. I'm sort of getting over it but it's an issue that makes me look for non-gaff'd routine to eliminate stress.
I do like the c/s coin for that reason. it's sort of like a half-gaff. And that's also why I like the CSB that uses just the C/S coin, such as Kams or Latta's or my almost famous "CopSilBrass For Sissies".
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
Trophy Husband, Father of the Year Candidate, Chippendale's Dancer applicant, Unofficial World Record Holder. |
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Paul Chosse V.I.P. 1955 - 2010 2389 Posts |
In response to an earlier post addressed to me:
Yes, I do, and have done for many years, the York sequence for CSB. I do both the ungaffed version Curtis alluded to AND the version with just the C/S gaff. And yes, it can look INCREDIBLY magical. I have made some adjustments to the material, as I do with many things, because it is neccessary for the work to fit my natural behavior. Body language, what can become "tells", is something that has to be considered when constructing material that requires hidden actions (slieght of hand!). So, as I develop a presentation, I tailor it to my normal actions. If I can't do that then I adopt the required handling as a part of my normal body language. By the way, and this is EXTREMELY important, I learned this from Tony Slydini. Contrary to the accepted wisdom re: Slydini, he DID NOT adapt his magic to his normal actions. He did the opposite in most cases. That is, he learned to do the trick and its' associated secret manuevers, then made the covering movements a part of his personal body language. This is something that has never been clearly communicated in any of the tons of material by and about Tony. Trust me though, after spending many hours with him, that is exactly what Tony did in many instances. I've gone far afield here, but my thoughts take on a direction all their own, and you'll just have to bear with me! Sorry... Best, PSC
"You can't steal a gift..." Dizzy Gillespie
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Sean Macfarlane Special user 880 Posts |
I'm glad I stimulated some discussion on the subject of difficult sleights vs gaffs, and thanks so much Paul for sharing about Tony Slydini and his ways of covering secret manuevers.
As a magician I do lose sight of the effect a lot of the time, especially when practicing sleights, I fall into the trap constantly of falling in love with a move. It's only when I perform I then realize that I need to broaden my vision to the big picture to really and try and see how this is going to look in the eyes of regular people. It can be discouraging at times to be caught out on a sleight you've worked hard on because you haven't figured out how to eliminate all tells before and after the secret action. My most recent time being busted was during and adjustment to a deep back clip, I chose the wrong moment. Such is life, but I did learn. Choosing favourabe moments has been a learning curve as well, I normally get this part down during actual performances and feeling it out, kind of like using the force. As far as adjustments go, I try to eliminate them or make them under appropriate misdirection. I love how David Roth as solved some of the adjustment problems in some of his routines. eg. "Slot Box" four coin routine. Curtis, thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences with some of the difficult sleight of hand you do. As for my feed back on your video/DVD's I feel that watching you on a T.V. screen and critiquing all the adjustments I see is unfair, I've watched a lot of magicians on t.v. and not been impressed, then get totally blown away and entertained completely in person by them at a convention or in a real world setting. I use videos/DVD's as learning tools and not so much for entertainment anymore. My queries stem from some of my own issues with sleight of hand magic. Cheers |
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