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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
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On Oct 1, 2017, Gumar Oz DuBar wrote: oooh that's interesting, so you're working for crowds/house parties where they are not expecting something theatrical in some way, and it is billed/sold as something entirely real...so not a show like a stage mentalism show works (lights, music, announcer, in a theatre and so on)... would you say its somewhat of a niche thing, or because of the beliefs at play - its quite a big thing, but the settings are somewhat different? and yes, out of everyone I have had the pleasure to get to know, JR is the most influential and enlightening of them - and we just got on and became friends... he's an unique and intelligent man...
I've asked to be banned
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
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On Oct 1, 2017, Mindpro wrote: you say that quite often and I always forget to ask for clarification - so are you saying that really, we need to fit into what the audiences and buyers want, rather than develop something unique/personal to us? never quite understood what you mean by this...do we always have to work via an entertainment agency for maximum impact?
I've asked to be banned
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jstreiff Special user 701 Posts |
Let me try a clarification which may or may not be successful.
As we use the terms in this forum, magicians, mentalists, hypnotists, bizarrists and seance workers are all mystery performance artists. We create performance art, we put on shows for entertainment. We create SIMULATIONS of ostensible reality to entertain audiences. The magician simulates dematerializations, materializations, transpositions and levitations for example that may or may not in happen in the natural world. The mentalist traditionally simulates psychic abilities that are studied academically in parapsychology research. The theatrical hypnotist simulates hypnotism that may occur in the natural world. All of these are simulations. I read the phrase here 'doing it for real' to mean without simulation. If I claim to do mental demonstrations 'for real' I am claiming psychic ability. If I claim to be a 'real' hypnotist, I am saying I am actually hypnotizing people and that my work could be legitimately studied scientifically; I am not simulating it. And so on. Perhaps this will help or maybe it will just muddy the waters, hopefully not.
John
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NRmind New user 57 Posts |
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On Sep 30, 2017, Gumar Oz DuBar wrote: My point about generating income through entertainment was that it isn't self deception, it is purposeful. I take your point about the term mentalism having a meaning that doesn't change because another performer uses it. I also wasn't aware that you don't bill yourself as an entertainer. I personally DO want my audiences to see what I do as entertainment. I also do not know exactly what you do and hopefully my original language was worded to reelect that. My understanding is that there are performers who use mentalism techniques to fleece and mislead people out of their money, time etc. lastly - the point regarding audiences. My viewpoint isn't coming from anything other than my admittedly limited experience. As limited as it is, I've noticed a direct correlation between marketing a service as more "elite" and the associated fees. Magic can obviously be marketed towards adults but my guess is that the average competent performer would find it easier to sell a service perceived as psychological st a higher rate than sleight of hand magic. Clearly this is not a hard rule. Just what I am seeing and hearing. Also - the psychological magician / mentalist complicates a lot of this for me. You and Mindpro seem rather adamant that one cannot change an audiences beliefs through magical mentalism or whatever you want to call it. But whenever paying clients come away asking how you learned to read people (or whatever), have you not altered their perception of what is possible? I am no one special but I get asked time and time again questions that DO in fact make me feel a little guilty since it's obviously mostly trickery. That's hard to do with pure sleight of hand magic. I find all of this fascinating and do not think of it being related to ego. I want to learn what viewpoints are out there - I just relate to why mental magicians co opt the term mentalist. People out there are so willing to let you create that definition for them... they don't often know what a mentalist or mindreader or psychic does. |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
For me, "doing it for real" and "playing it for real" are a million miles apart...
doing it for real means trusting in your intuition/inner mind or however you define it, using pendulums with the belief that it is energy or spirits (tied in with the person presenting it, in the belief that they are using their psychic gifts in whatever form they believe they take) - and if doing a Q&A, its reading the question then giving an answer from that psychic well or higher power and so on... whereas "playing it for real" is using techniques from the classics of traditional old school mentalism, as taught in the jinx, 13 steps and all the others...but delivered with the conviction, mixed with the premise that it all 'might be' real... I've always struggled with the idea that its played for real, yet the person is on a stage with lighting, music, in an entertainment venue, there's a story arc, there's dramatic moments, there's props...yet people insist that is an authentic display of 'playing it for real'...for me, its theatrical and entertainment only. and when men and women did do bigger shows in theatres, it was never delievered as a entertaining show...its a big public display of a psychic answering questions and so on....
I've asked to be banned
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Gumar Oz DuBar Loyal user 244 Posts |
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On Oct 1, 2017, IAIN wrote: Precisely that. Not how a stage mentalism show works at all, nothing like it. That's why I continued to make the distinction between what I do and what magicians/stage mentalists do, and reiterated that with every post in this thread and defined it pretty well on my first post in this thread at the bottom of page 2. Most of the time, my client base is looking to learn about the metaphysical dimension, it is more like a lecture or class than a show, indeed that's how it is usually billed (lecture, workshop, class, etc.) The people that attend are specifically expecting something real, and would be offended if I tried entertaining them with, a card trick, say. Nothing overtly theatrical about it, I don't have special stage lighting nor do I have an announcer (although depending on my gig, sometimes music is used in certain segments, often times with a real flute player, drum player, or with singing bowls). I hope one of the elements that all of my gigs have include some kind of entertainment value, but that isn't at all the focus or objective, not in the slightest - it's giving them what they want, which is not an entertainment performance. That is never what my client base is looking for, if they were, I'd presume they would hire an entertainer, possibly a magician. They don't want that, which is why I'm hired. "Niche thing"? Maybe. Depends on who you are, I'd say. This is my entire life, it certainly isn't a niche thing to me or those who hire me, as the spiritual/metaphysical/new age dimension is a very big part of their lives as well. This is the community that I live in, and it certainly isn't a niche thing to those that are a part of that community, it's a way of life (that sounds a bit corny, but it is the truth). For others who do not consider themselves part of this specific community, I have no doubt that it's something that they would consider a "niche thing", mainly because it doesn't track with their everyday life as it does with me and my clients who are part of this spiritual community. Quote:
On Oct 1, 2017, IAIN wrote: I agree completely about JR, but this comment has nothing to do with my direct response to you about his material for real workers (which doesn't enter into the magician's experience) and how I (at your request) made the work that he has released for magicians that you brought up, "fit in" to what you were "misunderstanding". Your comment doesn't address my direct response to you at all, in any way or form. Instead I get this pithy response that has nothing to do with what we're speaking about. A little disappointing. JR is an incredibly unique, intelligent, creative, and influential man, I agree, but has nothing to do with why you originally brought up his name in relation to the subject at hand, and my response to your original statement. As I say, to make this kind of non-sequitor (and ignore the reason why you brought him up and my response to that) when we're having a specific conversation, is a bit disappointing to say the least, because you didn't address my response to YOU bringing his name up in an attempt to make a point that you failed at. At least we share an admiration for the great man, can see and respect his genius, and have that in common. Quote:
On Oct 1, 2017, IAIN wrote: You already know what "doing it for real" means and you can tell from my original post on page 2 and all my subsequent posts in this thread exactly how I work, so what on earth did you ask me for? You already know! Never, not once, did I use the phrase "playing it for real". Throughout this entire thread I've been consistent and clear as to everything I meant. It seems like you enjoy a bit of trolling, or at the very least, need some kind of attention to satiate a desire about which I dare not speculate. There's no reason to stir the pot, IAIN. Quote:
On Oct 1, 2017, NRmind wrote: My point about stage mentalists and self-deception was in relation to how they perceive themselves and how influential they think they are to their audiences (who paid to see entertainment) and their audience's core beliefs, values, etc. I believe that there may be a genuine misunderstanding on your part as to what I am saying, and I have a feeling it may indeed be due to your experience, or perhaps it is the way I am wording the thrust of my point. At any rate, I'm not going to waste time on this, though, because my original post is as crystalline as possible and my following posts touch upon everything you've just stated, albeit not exactly directly. I keep saying this, because I decline to repeat myself, just reread my posts, responses to everything you just said are already contained within them.
I write and edit text.
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Blimey... the part about playing it for real vs doing it for real, wasn't addressed to you (Mr Dubar) - if I address someone specifically I'll try to use the "@" and mention their name to avoid confusion..(I failed on page 2)...
I did not see a question aimed at me regarding JR... I saw you make a few statements (about his recent iChing, and his correlation to Alexander, but no questions)... i'm not stirring the pot, or any other receptacle at the moment... I agree with you about the differences between what you describe doing vs a stage mentalist 100%...
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Oh and when I used the term niche, it wasn't in a disrespectful way - you clarified it perfectly (thanks)...
for me, 'niche' simply means non-mainstream, and not generic or formulaic...which is a good thing...
I've asked to be banned
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Last Laugh Inner circle Grass Valley, California 3498 Posts |
Listen - much respect all around here. I have no judgment or issue with what Gumar does. However - I don't think I know anyone else who only does what Gumar does that thinks of themselves as a mentalist. Even going back to it's roots in Spritualism, the earliest 'mentalists', used trickery. IMO, if you are doing it for real, why even call yourself a mentalist? Yes JR and others do it for real, but they also have done shows using trickery extensively. And I know they draw a distinction. The JR shows using trickery.... he called that mentalism, no? And I doubt he describes his reading work as mentalism.
Personally, I consider readings and 'doing it for real' to be distinct from mentalism. If someone books me for readings, I don't do any deception. If someone books me as a mentalist, well, I do mentalism as defined by nearly everyone - the 'simulation' psychic phenomenon. Now, again - MindPro is confusing. He seems to agree with Gumar's post, but then talks about his entertainment agency and what booking clients want. Among MPs prolific posts on this site, I don't see him in the Gumar camp of eschewing deception and doing it for real. He certainly advocates playing it for real but other than that, he is all about 'entertainment' which is specifically what Gumar is saying he doesn't do. But look here's my point. For better or worse, definitions are arrived at by consensus. While there is a legitimate argument about to what degree playing it for real is meant by the term 'mentalist', I just don't see anyone else that uses no trickery at all describing themselves that way. Why would they? the term 'mentalism' is associated with stage shows, entertainers, and magic. A real psychic wants nothing to do with that word...
My Mentalism Podcast:
The Mystery Arts Podcast Check out my products! Direct from me (PW: cassidy) On Penguin Magic |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
The only thing I'll add is that for me, being a mentalist is finding something that is relating to how the world works currently, or might work in some way - and then being authentic to that belief... mix in your persona and having something unique to say and share - then whatever comes out of that mix, is *your* mentalism...
life is bigger, wider, fragmented and different - and becomes more so with each passing year...we use social media in isolation for starters, how about tht for a conundrum... people feel apart and lonely, yet also strangely connected by an unseen (ok, electrical and other means) forces...there's metaphors, science, beliefs, opinions and all things inbetween... its why I've always struggled with the tighter somewhat restrictive views on mentalism...which doesn't mean I reject all of them - it just means in my opinion, life is bigger and broader- therefore to relate to others, I want to touch upon those things... dynamite mentalism/q&a is still alive and kicking, but it also needs to change and keep up with the times... viewpoints, beliefs, it all changes...in the UK us who are atheists are now in the majority amongst all those claim a religious view, atheists are the majority - therefore, certain aspects of mentalism can either challenge or accept that fact... all these little things add up to major elements that can/should/could be expressed in the "art of mentalism"... give people the tools, let them create... learn techniques, learn how to express yourself... for me, the titles aren't so important and haven't been for a while... that's how I see it...just my viewpoint...
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Gumar Oz DuBar Loyal user 244 Posts |
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On Oct 1, 2017, IAIN wrote:I did not see a question aimed at me regarding JR... I saw you make a few statements (about his recent iChing, and his correlation to Alexander, but no questions)... I didn't use the word "question" once in the specific part of the conversation that you're referring to, reread the small paragraph I wrote. I said that you made a non-sequitur about him, something that had nothing to do with my response to YOU bringing him (and others) up in an attempt to make some point about their work and where that fits in to what I was saying. In other words, I was saying that you that you were acknowledging what I wrote (by replying to my response with a non-seqtuitur) without refuting my premise and then defense of it, as you began by doing, or without conceding if you agreed. Quote:
On Oct 1, 2017, IAIN wrote: Quote:
On Oct 1, 2017, IAIN wrote: Quote:
On Oct 1, 2017, IAIN wrote: Fair enough.
I write and edit text.
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Bill Cushman Inner circle Florida 2876 Posts |
"You're also a notorious skeptic, Mr. Cushman. I highly doubt that you are truly are confused as to what's been stated, you're too smart for that, you simply disagree. And that's fine." Gumar Oz DuBar
Thank you for my new stage name! "Notorious Skeptic" T-shirts will be on sale in the lobby after the show. Seriously, Gumar, I felt fairly clear on what it is you do and how you choose to define mentalism (and thank you for confirming). My confusion related to Mindpro's post. I simply didn't know that his work overlapped with yours. And Mindpro, with all due respect, your subsequent post really hasn't added any clarity. |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
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On Oct 1, 2017, IAIN wrote: No, none of that is really what I meant at all. This is my point, is so many posts here are accepted and interpreted only as it pertains to the person (and level of the person) reading it, and often not as truly intended by the poster. There are many levels to us all and we each need to be honest with ourselves exactly where we are. Because of this, interpretations are often different as they are taken only as they pertain to themselves. It is quite a stretch for any hobbyist or enthusiast to be able to think or often understand the perspective of a working professional. This is like a guy that makes home movies thinking his opinion and insights would somehow be equal to Steven Speilberg. Not meant as a diss (which also often gets misinterpreted), but rather a fact that is the basis for much misunderstanding and communication problems here. For example, nothing you said in the above quoted paragraph was as intended. I am glad you asked for interpretation. When someone is just a hobbyist or enthusiast they think, create and do/perform what they want, what they like and is of interest to them. They only perform for family and/or friends/co-workers and usually for their own personal benefit or fulfillment. When you are a working professional it becomes about much more than your personal preferences as the focus shifts to the market, client and their paying or invited audiences. This is something that many that are not working pros think they understand but is in reality quite different. This is also why all opinions are not the same or equal. Most hobbyists and beginners start by creating a performance of what THEY want to do and make others watch it or try to find others to sell it to (book it) if just starting out in paid performing. This is the default way most start performing, as it just evolves from their casual interests. Those doing this professionally know it is no longer about your personal preferences but rather what the market bears, and what the paying client wants for their event or audience. Sure you can try to maintain your creative interests in it, but now pleasing the client and the marketplace becomes your priority if you hope to sustain. These are two hugely different foundational perspectives, approaches and attitudes. I get into greater detail of this in my Entertainer's Guide To Working With Agents & Agencies book. The key to a good working professional is to take all of the elements and aspects to the professional markets and clients you are targeting/serving and try to combine that with your "uniqueness" as you called it to create something that serves and fits your market and client while retaining the creative aspect you are hoping to maintain. Sure, sometimes creative aspects may have to be compromised or adapted if you want to offer yourself the greatest chance to succeed, if not that is your conscious choice. This is what I say when many (by default) choose to operate form their own personal perspective, where most successful pros learn to operate from the industry perspective. Again, two different things. Your question "do we always have to work via an entertainment agency for maximum impact?" No, that is not what is meant at all. No one has to work for an agency for impact or to be successful. The point is almost all performers only think, operate and deal with prospective customers from the perspective of their own performing discipline - magician, mentalist, juggler, hypnotist, storyteller, musician, etc. So when clients contact them the conversation and perspectives almost always pertains 100% to their performance, their chosen performance discipline and so on. If you are talking to a magician, everything is typically about magic and magicians. Prospective clients only address their interests in this one area of which they feel you know or specialize. However an agency gets an entirely different set of circumstances and perspectives. Because we are seen as all-encompassing (my full-service agency) people tend to open up and tell us much more about their interests, ideas, past experiences their wants and definitive dislikes. We hear stuff they would never tell an individual performer. I hear this in my agencies and my talent brokerage company too. One of the things we hear more than anything else, I'd say for the last 8 years or so, especially around prime booking times of the year for different markets (right now we are heavy booking holiday events, February (after the first of the year) trade show season, fundraising season and fairs and festivals for next Spring/Summer) goes exactly like this: "We are interested in a mentalist for this years event. We've had a comedian two years ago and a magician last year, but this year we want something much different - we want a mentalist. Or the other one we hear all the time is "we booked a mentalist before (directly, not though us - 81% of out new business each year is from clients who had a bad experience booking directly with an artist previously) and he ended up being a magician that was trying to do mental tricks. This time we want a real mentalist." Regardless of all the stuff many say here (I know most are not workers or actual performing professionals, yet they still offer opinions as if fact or advice) people DO know what a mentalist is, they ask for it by name, and usually have a point of reference to what they expect them to do. At the absolute very least, they know they do NOT want a magician or fake-mentalist. Now I should say we book and specialize in both consumer and professional markets and we hear this, consistently across the board both in the U.S. and out. It is this, and the such conversations and adamant, specific interests longtime clients as well as new customers specially know, want and are aware of. I hope you can better understand what I was referring to and saying. Many things at work here. |
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Gumar Oz DuBar Loyal user 244 Posts |
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On Oct 1, 2017, Bill Cushman wrote: Haha! Ah fair enough. I didn't think you were a stage worker though, from what I heard, you don't really perform, could I be wrong about this? If so, I'm happy to assist you in any way, especially if it's creative assistance that leads to selling merch. And this has nothing to do with me, just want to put it out there though. For the record, I have no idea who Mindpro is, nor do I know of him. Never met him and never had a private conversation with him. I also don't think his work overlaps with mine, seeing as my professional friends don't know him and neither do I. If he was working in my circuit, I think I would have at least heard of him. Simply because the market is so small. Also, after reading his post above, I see that he has a book for entertainers working with agencies. I am not an entertainer (as he presumably is), I don't use agencies of any kind, and I've never written a book for entertainers or anyone in that market. So it can be safely presumed that his work does not overlap with mine.
I write and edit text.
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Last Laugh Inner circle Grass Valley, California 3498 Posts |
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On Oct 1, 2017, Mindpro wrote: You hear this all the time? I have literally never met a non-performer who knows enough about mentalism to make this kind of statement... I could see that being said about a psychic maybe... Does your agency represent both magicians and mentalists? What would guess the ratio is of people who are specifically looking for a magician vs a mentalist?
My Mentalism Podcast:
The Mystery Arts Podcast Check out my products! Direct from me (PW: cassidy) On Penguin Magic |
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Raum Loyal user 227 Posts |
His agency doesn't represent anything. He is a full time poster, not a full time performer or businessman.
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Max Hazy Special user 543 Posts |
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On Oct 1, 2017, Mindpro wrote: Your reality is clearly different from mine, but speaking for myself, that's absolutely NOT the general case at all here where I live.
"Your method is in my opinion the very best way to do Q&A"
Millard Longman "Max has pushed some less known and seldom used principles a huge step forward" Jan Forster Arcane Grimoires Vol 1- http://www.maxhazy.com/arcane-grimoires/apocryphal-reach/ Arcane Grimoires Vol 2- http://www.maxhazy.com/Codex-Mentis/ |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Obviously I'm biased, however I've always held the view that it should be about being unique and having qualities that make you standard out and people wanting 'you', rather than becoming (in my view only) a generic covers band mentalist who provides only what someone else wants and allowing them to define it all.
When I used to run clubs, DJ and book bands, I can to a degree understand that process, but not with mentalism... Feels like asking picasso to only use his fingers and no flowers, and make it green to match my carpet please... Obviously there's a place for requests and compromise, but not changing everything to suit something that you feel doesn't match up with what drives you...
I've asked to be banned
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MentalistCreationLab Inner circle 1528 Posts |
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On Oct 2, 2017, Raum wrote: Standing Ovation! |
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Martin Pulman Inner circle London 3399 Posts |
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On Oct 1, 2017, Gumar Oz DuBar wrote: Dear Gumar, Just so we're absolutely certain where you are coming from -which (if any) of the following people would you consider to be performers of mentalism: Dunninger, Chan Canasta, David Berglas, Banachek, Derren Brown? Thanks in advance, Martin. |
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