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NYCTwister
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Rockwall, as I said, the issue isn't so simple.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
landmark
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Quote:
On Sep 14, 2017, rockwall wrote:
So Tommy and landmark and anyone else who thinks they charge too much, if you were to start a business to help people out by loaning them a bit of money until their next paycheck, what would you charge to loan someone $200 for 2 weeks?


Why would I start a business to exploit poor people?
If I wanted to help people, there are many other paths to choose.
People can choose not to exploit others. Personal responsibility.
rockwall
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Lending money to help someone get by till the end of the week is exploiting people? How noble of you!
tommy
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Paper money in itself is a con game but as for thinking the loan sharks charge too much I don’t but I do think the people who borrow at those rates are desperate suckers being exploited.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Dannydoyle
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In a lot of ways it is as simple as Rockwall suggests. Don't spend more than you make has been thrown out the window.

The point he makes is not totally invalid. It is easy to just say people are being taken advantage of and on some level they are. But nobody forces them to go to get the loan is I believe his point. I am not agreeing or disagreeing but it is a valid position to take.

I once took an OUTRAGEOUS loan to keep my business going. I knew what I was doing, I calculated the need vs. the cost and I do not feel as if I was "taken advantage of". Nobody forced me to take it, and certainly the business would have failed without it. We put ourselves in that position, and never have again. (The never have again part is completely credited to my wife.)

I'm not suggesting this is the position everyone is in by a long shot. But in many ways it is exactly as simple as Rockwall suggests.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
landmark
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On Sep 14, 2017, rockwall wrote:
Lending money to help someone get by till the end of the week is exploiting people? How noble of you!


Your definition of "help": charging 152% interest.

Nice try. Let's call things by what they are--charging what the market will bear when people are desperate. The lenders are not Mother Teresa. The word "help" should not be debased that way.
Magnus Eisengrim
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The problem is that often people desperate enough to agree to a 20% loan are often desperate enough to agree to a 100% loan. If they can't get the cheap loans that most people can qualify for, they take what they can get. Usurious profiteers recognize this, and gouge. In economic terms, the demand curve is nearly vertical.

It's the same situation as the "pharma-bro" who bought the patent to a life-saving drug, and raised the price from $13.70 to $750. The desperate will pay, he reasoned.

And that's why he's a despised man.

In your moral system--religious or otherwise--do you have a tenet that says that the vulnerable and desperate are to be exploited for your profit?

Yes, the situation is simple. And your beliefs about it say a great deal about you.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
NYCTwister
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Quote:
On Sep 14, 2017, rockwall wrote:
So Tommy and landmark and anyone else who thinks they charge too much, if you were to start a business to help people out by loaning them a bit of money until their next paycheck, what would you charge to loan someone $200 for 2 weeks?


A $15.00 flat fee. 7.5% of the total.

I don't know if that's enough for a business, which only makes these types of loans, to be sufficiently profitable but that's not the major point; which is that, by nature, these types of businesses are another symptom of the moral crisis the world is facing - and has been facing for millennia.

There are cleaner ways of making money.
The idea of investing considerable resources in order to go into this type of business is repugnant to me.

The fact that, in 2017, it's still a viable and profitable business is shame on us.

I've lived through periods where what I had wasn't going to make it to payday. It's a horrible feeling in general, but the worst part was how limited your possibilities seem to get. I can easily see how one can fall into a downward spiral, constantly thinking that there is no other choice - especially if your skill set is limited.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
rockwall
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Quote:
On Sep 15, 2017, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 14, 2017, rockwall wrote:
Lending money to help someone get by till the end of the week is exploiting people? How noble of you!


Your definition of "help": charging 152% interest.

Nice try. Let's call things by what they are--charging what the market will bear when people are desperate. The lenders are not Mother Teresa. The word "help" should not be debased that way.


I asked what YOU would charge and you said you wouldn't do it because it would be taking advantage of people. So, you've essentially said charging ANYTHING would be taking advantage of them. (Which doesn't surprise me coming from a capitalist hating communist. Heck, you figure you'd be taking advantage of the people you hired to work for you!)
rockwall
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Quote:
On Sep 15, 2017, NYCTwister wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 14, 2017, rockwall wrote:
So Tommy and landmark and anyone else who thinks they charge too much, if you were to start a business to help people out by loaning them a bit of money until their next paycheck, what would you charge to loan someone $200 for 2 weeks?


A $15.00 flat fee. 7.5% of the total.

I don't know if that's enough for a business, which only makes these types of loans, to be sufficiently profitable but that's not the major point; which is that, by nature, these types of businesses are another symptom of the moral crisis the world is facing - and has been facing for millennia.

There are cleaner ways of making money.
The idea of investing considerable resources in order to go into this type of business is repugnant to me.

The fact that, in 2017, it's still a viable and profitable business is shame on us.

I've lived through periods where what I had wasn't going to make it to payday. It's a horrible feeling in general, but the worst part was how limited your possibilities seem to get. I can easily see how one can fall into a downward spiral, constantly thinking that there is no other choice - especially if your skill set is limited.



Horrors!!! Have you calculated the effective interest rate that would be on a 2 week loan!!!!

Now, what do you charge when they don't pay you back when they promised?
tommy
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The magic number is 72: if you are constantly lending money out at say at 10% a month then your money will double about every seven months as opposed to ten. In the world of gambling, 10% a month is not unusual. 10% a week some sharks charge.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Dannydoyle
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So how about we close all pawn shops?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
tommy
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In a world, where money is king, holding on to your own integrity isn’t easy. To hold on to your integrity then you must live a frugal life and once you have that, then you might help other people. But who on earth wants to live a frugal life?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
landmark
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Quote:
On Sep 15, 2017, rockwall wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 15, 2017, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 14, 2017, rockwall wrote:
Lending money to help someone get by till the end of the week is exploiting people? How noble of you!


Your definition of "help": charging 152% interest.

Nice try. Let's call things by what they are--charging what the market will bear when people are desperate. The lenders are not Mother Teresa. The word "help" should not be debased that way.


I asked what YOU would charge and you said you wouldn't do it because it would be taking advantage of people. So, you've essentially said charging ANYTHING would be taking advantage of them. (Which doesn't surprise me coming from a capitalist hating communist. Heck, you figure you'd be taking advantage of the people you hired to work for you!)


Whether you are surprised or not by my views is not the point. Neither am I surprised by your views. What I think is telling is your need to cloak the obvious exploitation as "help."
landmark
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On Sep 15, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
So how about we close all pawn shops?


It would certainly be a good thing to work towards a society that doesn't need them.
Pretty interesting Rod Steiger movie if you recall from the 60s.
tommy
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The Devil Fish used to have a pawn shop.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Sep 15, 2017, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 15, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
So how about we close all pawn shops?


It would certainly be a good thing to work towards a society that doesn't need them.
Pretty interesting Rod Steiger movie if you recall from the 60s.


The are the original exploitation if we follow your theory.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
rockwall
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Quote:
On Sep 15, 2017, landmark wrote:
...

It would certainly be a good thing to work towards a society that doesn't need them.
...


Ahh yes, the never-ending quest for a communist utopia. It must be out there somewhere, if only we could find it!
tommy
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The world we are being taken too as we speak is a technocracy. There will be no money but rations of C02 and I am not sure if or not one will be able to lend them at interest. You will simply do as you are told to get your ration. Some will be more equal than others, like a communist utopia but not quite the same. I am not sure if Landmark would be happy with that system but I am quite sure that all the Green people would.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
NYCTwister
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Quote:
On Sep 15, 2017, rockwall wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 15, 2017, landmark wrote:
...

It would certainly be a good thing to work towards a society that doesn't need them.
...


Ahh yes, the never-ending quest for a communist utopia. It must be out there somewhere, if only we could find it!


You understand what's being said.
The fact that you need to twist such a statement, in order to defend the despicable, speaks volumes about your character and it's moral base.

Let's never speak of changing what's wrong, since what we have works fine for YOU; and for those it doesn't then "suck it up - yada yada yada - bootstraps - yada yada yada - get a fourth job."

Thankfully, the majority of those who default to that rhetorical, RW BS are coming to the end of their time. Hopefully they won't do too much MORE damage on their way into infamy.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
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