The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Has walkaround and propless taken over? (47 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4 [Next]
oliverho
View Profile
New user
32 Posts

Profile of oliverho
I just want to express my appreciation for this discussion. As a long-time amateur-hobbyist, this is all fascinating and great food for thought. For what it's worth, this discussion resonates with ones I've had in other areas--I've been a professional writer and editor for 20+ years, and I've heard similar discussions in the contexts of writing, editing, visual art, and several others. (I'm not saying this is a unique insight--I'm sure people here have had similar experiences.) The discussions often include the question of whether people can call themselves artists (in this case, mentalists) if they do something at least a little like art (mentalism) and call it art (mentalism). There seem to be good arguments both ways. I tend to support the idea that if you want to be an artist, and you make/do something sincerely, and call it art, then you're an artist. That doesn't mean automatically that you're a good one. It doesn't mean automatically that you're not. I understand the notion that bad art denigrates (or otherwise brings down) good art. I disagree, but I could be wrong. I think the important part is whether you're sincere in your work (as opposed to cynical), and whether you're willing to continue learning (and be open to changing how you've usually done things). The worst art (which can be a subjective call, too) often seems to come from people who approach their work as if they've already learned everything. Anyway, that's just my two cents.
Martin Pulman
View Profile
Inner circle
London
3054 Posts

Profile of Martin Pulman
Quote:
On Sep 13, 2017, oliverho wrote:
I just want to express my appreciation for this discussion. As a long-time amateur-hobbyist, this is all fascinating and great food for thought. For what it's worth, this discussion resonates with ones I've had in other areas--I've been a professional writer and editor for 20+ years, and I've heard similar discussions in the contexts of writing, editing, visual art, and several others. (I'm not saying this is a unique insight--I'm sure people here have had similar experiences.) The discussions often include the question of whether people can call themselves artists (in this case, mentalists) if they do something at least a little like art (mentalism) and call it art (mentalism). There seem to be good arguments both ways. I tend to support the idea that if you want to be an artist, and you make/do something sincerely, and call it art, then you're an artist. That doesn't mean automatically that you're a good one. It doesn't mean automatically that you're not. I understand the notion that bad art denigrates (or otherwise brings down) good art. I disagree, but I could be wrong. I think the important part is whether you're sincere in your work (as opposed to cynical), and whether you're willing to continue learning (and be open to changing how you've usually done things). The worst art (which can be a subjective call, too) often seems to come from people who approach their work as if they've already learned everything. Anyway, that's just my two cents.
The analogy only works as far as it goes, I think. I may wish to claim the unmade bed I've just dragged myself out of is a work of art, and I am free to do so, but it doesn't make it so. Whereas other unmade beds have the status of art -no matter that they may be 'bad art'. I only earned the right to be thought of as a bad actor once someone was foolish enough to give me a job.

And my comments about table-hopping and kids and amateurs performing mentalism routines on TV having the potential, in the long run, to destroy mentalism is different than saying "bad art denigrates good art". Mentalism is dependent on mystery. It is dependent on the audience believing they are watching someone with supranatural powers (not necessarily paranormal powers), and if they don't believe that then the illusion is destroyed. If we have kids and amateurs performing mentalism on TV, year-in, year-out, and if every magician who is table hopping performs mentalism effects then there is a danger that the audience will be inculcated into seeing ALL mentalism as just "tricks", and the very mystery that is the beating heart of mentalism will be destroyed completely.

All just in my opinion.
paul180
View Profile
Loyal user
219 Posts

Profile of paul180
Quote:
On Sep 14, 2017, Martin Pulman wrote:
if every magician who is table hopping performs mentalism effects then there is a danger that the audience will be inculcated into seeing ALL mentalism as just "tricks", and the very mystery that is the beating heart of mentalism will be destroyed completely.
All just in my opinion.


The key to your premise being MAGICIAN but as I pointed out in my post, a MENTALIST who performs walk around is still a mentlist. Again just ask Mark Strivings. And again in terms of table hopping, context is everything. While doing readings I "table hopped". All I did was readings. How did that destroy mentalism?

I appreciate your conviction to your premise but it's wrong, in a broader context.
A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a foolish man can learn from a wise answer.

Attributing negativity to a topic or post doesn't make the topic or post negative,
it shines a light on the negativity of the person or persons, making the attributions.

BEWARE these Debbie downers and anything they say. They simply lack the self esteem or good will, to be positive or productive. Your belief in self, is more
important and is all that matters, for your success to be glorious.
bevbevvybev
View Profile
Inner circle
UK
2566 Posts

Profile of bevbevvybev
To answer original question, don't think it's taken over, although it has to some extent replaced the new 'amaze and entertain your friends' strapline to sell things.

The only thing I think its taken over is the copy used to sell products to people.
Looch
View Profile
Inner circle
Off by
3321 Posts

Profile of Looch
If I perform a 60 min after dinner 'mentalism' show for a large company and am requested to mingle with clients afterwards and perform close up. Have I suddenly transformed from a mentalist to a mental magician?
Marc O
View Profile
Special user
The Netherlands
744 Posts

Profile of Marc O
Quote:
On Sep 14, 2017, Looch wrote:
If I perform a 60 min after dinner 'mentalism' show for a large company and am requested to mingle with clients afterwards and perform close up. Have I suddenly transformed from a mentalist to a mental magician?


Not for me!
See my post on page 1, I would gladly trade my ticket for any mentalism stage show in return of a visite from you or Atlas at my dinner table.

Poor thing is that you never visit the Netherlands Smile
Martin Pulman
View Profile
Inner circle
London
3054 Posts

Profile of Martin Pulman
Quote:
On Sep 14, 2017, Looch wrote:
If I perform a 60 min after dinner 'mentalism' show for a large company and am requested to mingle with clients afterwards and perform close up. Have I suddenly transformed from a mentalist to a mental magician?


When a magician performs a mentalism effect have they transformed from being a magician to being a mentalist?

I would say no, because I don't think simply performing mentalism effects makes you a mentalist. I think it also involves creating a credible persona and a credible atmosphere. In the scenario you suggest I would say you have already established your persona before you mingled with the audience. That wouldn't necessarily be the case in a straight, stand-alone table-hopping scenario.
IAIN
View Profile
Eternal Order
england
18312 Posts

Profile of IAIN
When did van Gogh become an artist?

He never made money for it when alive. He was barely recognised as a human being. He had lots of personal struggles, yet he was dedicated and had something to express...
Martin Pulman
View Profile
Inner circle
London
3054 Posts

Profile of Martin Pulman
Van Gogh gained entrance to the Academy in Antwerp where he studied with major artistic figures, had repeated exhibitions of his work in professional art dealerships, had his work praised by his artistic peers including Toulouse-Lautrec and Monet, had his work reviewed by the artistic and literary press of the day and attempted to sell his work -although only succeeding once. He failed in his attempt to be a financially successful artist, but he was far from an undiscovered talent working away on his own, heedless of recognition. I don't think the notion of Van Gogh being the equivalent of someone who shows mentalism effects only to their friends and family holds up particularly well.
IAIN
View Profile
Eternal Order
england
18312 Posts

Profile of IAIN
Martin - pretty much anyone who wanted to be a painter/artist - would study at an academy of some kind, and its perfectly natural that some of those at the same academy would become well known...and gain plaudits too...it was the done thing for many centuries...and it was only really at the very end of his life that people (like monet if memory serves) started to appreciate his work...

look at someone like Austin Osman Spare too...

you're also missing the point really, I'm talking about the notion of a consensus agreeing that a person is not worthy or good and not worthy of a particular title or "thing" - sometimes they're correct, sometimes they are massively wrong...

lets remember we're dealing in opinions, regardless if its expressed by a single person or a group, the validity of that opinion varies massively for a variety of reasons I reckon...(that's an opinion btw as you weren't sure of my intent previously)...
IAIN
View Profile
Eternal Order
england
18312 Posts

Profile of IAIN
I take it back about Spare, he was a little bit more successful and probably more influential whilst he was alive than van gogh...

Spare is also interesting to study for some mentalists btw...I saw an exhibition of his recently at the last Tuesday society...well worth a visit...
IAIN
View Profile
Eternal Order
england
18312 Posts

Profile of IAIN
So my point remains, that for (lets refine it to be clearer) *MOST* of van gogh's life, his work was considered crude and ugly...he wouldn't have been seen as an artist at all, or at very most quite a poor one...
IAIN
View Profile
Eternal Order
england
18312 Posts

Profile of IAIN
Btw - where did you get the van gogh stuff from, martin?
http://www.vangoghroute.com/belgium/antwerp/
shows that he only studied there for a very short period of time...

he stayed there for two month...
Tony Iacoviello
View Profile
Eternal Order
13144 Posts

Profile of Tony Iacoviello
I would contend that he was always an artist, but it took more than his lifetime for others to recognize value in his work.
But even if they never recognized his work, it would not diminish him as an artist in any way, just our recognition of him.
IAIN
View Profile
Eternal Order
england
18312 Posts

Profile of IAIN
I agree tony, and if we can't draw parallels between van Gogh and certain others in mentalism, then I guess some work on metaphors needs to be taken...

Possibly in Antwerp...
Martin Pulman
View Profile
Inner circle
London
3054 Posts

Profile of Martin Pulman
I don't think the visual arts and performance arts are really equivalent, so I'm not convinced this line of debate is getting us anywhere. Performance art requires an audience. And if you recite Shakespeare only for your family you're never going to convince me you have the right to call yourself an actor.

People demanding the right to be called mentalists because they've bought some books and effects and have performed for their friends just seems odd to me. I don't really think you can even really learn mentalism if you only perform for your friends or other magicians, so I can't subscribe to the idea that solely performing only for those people makes you a mentalist. Just my opinion. And I write it because I so fully respect people who have taken the next step. It's not an easy one to take.
IAIN
View Profile
Eternal Order
england
18312 Posts

Profile of IAIN
I agree with you if pushed (performing for friends and family)...

But it also kinda doesn't matter (for me), it doesn't change anything does it? Talented is talent and that's it...you might call yourself an actor, but only until you're seen by the public will you hear whether you are a good or bad one...

I would say though, that art is the same, it's only until the public see it and potentially say they are moved by the experience or not..

It's also quite lofty and pretentious I guess...I always hear Withnail saying "I'm a trained actor reduced to the state of a bum!" when these discussions kick off..
backinblack
View Profile
Special user
869 Posts

Profile of backinblack
I do not really understand the point that propless has taken over. if you go to latest and greatest and count the effects that are propless and compare this with the amount of effects that are not propless the mayority is not propless. so what sort of take over are we talking about?
IAIN
View Profile
Eternal Order
england
18312 Posts

Profile of IAIN
Well, obviously within the mentalism side of things...if you don't agree it's not like it's against the law or anything...
backinblack
View Profile
Special user
869 Posts

Profile of backinblack
Easy going - I just wanted to ask what sort of indicator the theory of propless takes over is based on. related to published effects it shows that the mayority is not propless. so if the published effects are not the things what sort of "obviously within the mentalism side of things"? no offense - just want to understand. is it more a feeling or is it based on hart facts?
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Has walkaround and propless taken over? (47 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2019 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.15 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL