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IAIN
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And also for criticism to be given fairly, constructively and in a normal tone of voice (initially!)...

Not aimed at Martin, just that I work in an industry where criticism is a big part of it all...and criticism can be very useful and healthy, and it can also cause grief and problems when not explained properly, or I'd the person critiquing something is ill-informed..

"I like green, why cant we make it green?"
"It's a traffic sign"
I've asked to be banned
ed wood
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Quote:
On Sep 20, 2017, Martin Pulman wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 20, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 20, 2017, Harrybowman wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 20, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
A big part of business is listening to our customers.


Phedon is the only guy I know taking time to reply to each and every message he receives. This dude is the nicest fellow on the Café and has re-defined customer service, and the post above was insulting. There is one creator listening, helping, taking his time to chat and Skype everyone needing assistance and you two losers have nothing else to do than being the same a**holes you consistently are.


Nothing like a newbie that's only been here a couple of weeks telling everyone how it is.

It is simply a tactic to stifle criticism, used by people who sell mentalism, their mates and those desperate to be given free stuff. There are pages and pages of praise and hype for new releases, but as soon as anyone says anything negative the "creators" pile on to try and derail the conversation. They are "nice" and helpful and willing to offer you free items for review as long as you praise them. Question their product in any way and the true personality emerges.

The true measure of a person is if they can retain civility when they are not being praised. And that works both ways. I thought Ed Wood's mention of "cashing in" was personal and unnecessary.


You're right. Those words were overly harsh. Most certainly not meant to be personal and should have been written in a far more civil way. I apologise for that.
tomd
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I'd just like to point out (In the case of Proteus, and other recent releases) that you aren't paying $60 for a book alone. That price also includes a private facebook page that includes added PDF's, and Input from other purchases/performers, added subtleties, research, and continuous conversations on the personal struggles and pitfalls certain people have suffered along the way. THIS IS included in the price, as any person who can purchase the product can gain access the the private group, and anyone without a facebook account can create one for the sole purpose of viewing and joining in the discussion.

Another example of this is T.I.T.E, and in fact the amount of content the E-book contains has gone up exponentially since the creation of the private facebook group. And FYI, Phedon's contribution to that facebook group has been the personal highlight of mine, and many others.

Another point I'd like to make, is that the quote being used by Martin and Ed that Phedon said, is 100% a misinterpretation in my mind, and to interpret it fully, is understanding the level of work needed on Phedon's part for him to succesfully say "i could offer you no more". Proteus is a propless piece which heavily relies on knowledge of the culture and climate you are performing in, and results that Phedon recorded over the many years he performed will be drastically different for someone across the globe. He could have done much more, like for example study the different drawings an American would come up with in comparison to a greek person, or a chinese person etc etc.

The facebook group was made to speed up this process, as performers across the globe can pool together to get answers that will work for them. Phedon could have done all of that work himself, but evidently it took him years to get to the position he was in, with the culture he was surrounding himself with.

He has translated it into dozens of languages in his spare time, to start that process for performers in remote(er) areas of the world.

I didn't like how fraser Parker released his own version for money, and I didn't like how Michael Murray charged for his personal input. But what is done, is done. And personally Phedon Bilek and his release are a terrible example of what this thread was intended for. That quote wasn't taking into context the fact that the book is little to no help to someone from Tawain, for obvious reasons. So yes, he could have done more, but decided pooling together (with a facebook page) would be beneficial, and it was, and is.
phedonbilek
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Quote:
On Sep 20, 2017, ed wood wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 20, 2017, Martin Pulman wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 20, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 20, 2017, Harrybowman wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 20, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
A big part of business is listening to our customers.


Phedon is the only guy I know taking time to reply to each and every message he receives. This dude is the nicest fellow on the Café and has re-defined customer service, and the post above was insulting. There is one creator listening, helping, taking his time to chat and Skype everyone needing assistance and you two losers have nothing else to do than being the same a**holes you consistently are.


Nothing like a newbie that's only been here a couple of weeks telling everyone how it is.

It is simply a tactic to stifle criticism, used by people who sell mentalism, their mates and those desperate to be given free stuff. There are pages and pages of praise and hype for new releases, but as soon as anyone says anything negative the "creators" pile on to try and derail the conversation. They are "nice" and helpful and willing to offer you free items for review as long as you praise them. Question their product in any way and the true personality emerges.

The true measure of a person is if they can retain civility when they are not being praised. And that works both ways. I thought Ed Wood's mention of "cashing in" was personal and unnecessary.


You're right. Those words were overly harsh. Most certainly not meant to be personal and should have been written in a far more civil way. I apologise for that.




... and that truly honors you. Apologies accepted Smile

Now, if you own Proteus and feel you're missing something or that it doesn't work the way it should, feel free to contact me. I will gladly help you.

Sincerely,

Phedon
...The only easy day is yesterday...
phedonbilek
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Quote:
On Sep 20, 2017, tomd wrote:
I'd just like to point out (In the case of Proteus, and other recent releases) that you aren't paying $60 for a book alone. That price also includes a private facebook page that includes added PDF's, and Input from other purchases/performers, added subtleties, research, and continuous conversations on the personal struggles and pitfalls certain people have suffered along the way. THIS IS included in the price, as any person who can purchase the product can gain access the the private group, and anyone without a facebook account can create one for the sole purpose of viewing and joining in the discussion.

Another example of this is T.I.T.E, and in fact the amount of content the E-book contains has gone up exponentially since the creation of the private facebook group. And FYI, Phedon's contribution to that facebook group has been the personal highlight of mine, and many others.

Another point I'd like to make, is that the quote being used by Martin and Ed that Phedon said, is 100% a misinterpretation in my mind, and to interpret it fully, is understanding the level of work needed on Phedon's part for him to succesfully say "i could offer you no more". Proteus is a propless piece which heavily relies on knowledge of the culture and climate you are performing in, and results that Phedon recorded over the many years he performed will be drastically different for someone across the globe. He could have done much more, like for example study the different drawings an American would come up with in comparison to a greek person, or a chinese person etc etc.

The facebook group was made to speed up this process, as performers across the globe can pool together to get answers that will work for them. Phedon could have done all of that work himself, but evidently it took him years to get to the position he was in, with the culture he was surrounding himself with.

He has translated it into dozens of languages in his spare time, to start that process for performers in remote(er) areas of the world.

I didn't like how fraser Parker released his own version for money, and I didn't like how Michael Murray charged for his personal input. But what is done, is done. And personally Phedon Bilek and his release are a terrible example of what this thread was intended for. That quote wasn't taking into context the fact that the book is little to no help to someone from Tawain, for obvious reasons. So yes, he could have done more, but decided pooling together (with a facebook page) would be beneficial, and it was, and is.



Thank you so much for your words. You are expressing what I feel in a clarity I will never be able to reach. You nailed it 100%.

And to add to this, you didn't pay $55 dollars for Proteus only. I intend to release Proteus 2 for free, and ONLY to Proteus owners. It will be made available on the Facebook page. New routines, new uses, for free. I hope I'll be cashing in... a couple of smiles

Thank you deeply for your lovely words again

Phedon
...The only easy day is yesterday...
Mindpro
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Great, glad you feel better now. Now can we get back to the original topic and point of this thread?
David Thiel
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Fast food is typically a cheaply made product intended for mass consumption. I've wrestled with this myself...because there REALLY was a time when mentalism was more exclusive...more 'apart' as it were...and very distinct from magic. Yet even in those days I recall the vague touch of horror when I saw a clown doing pre-parade entertainment produce the MOABT...and perform it horribly.

I have seen classics of mentalism played for laughs by magicians of all stripes...but I have also see mentalism transformed into an agonizingly plodding presentation by mentalists.

No question that mentalism themed options are still at least one of the top three "flavors of the week" with performers who don't really understand what mentalism IS and of course that is disheartening. But there is also no question that we live in a different culture -- one both ravaged and blessed by the Internet.

I've written before that my fascination with magic began in the late 1980's when I was literally gobsmacked by seeing the Invisible Deck performed for the first time. There was no real internet in the olden days and I really had to work to get the secret. I wonder what I would be doing today if that information had been readily available in response to a few well placed keystrokes. The ID remains a literal miracle in my mind to this day precisely because along the way I was able to grasp how utterly brilliant its workings are.

Secrets -- and long held 'Performers ONLY' effects have been blown out of the inner community by people who want to make money from them -- or variations of them. The community itself began treating its 'treasures' as marketable commodities. Okay...that's not entirely fair: MOST of the community did so.

But who is working to even TRY to instill some form of ethic -- trying to TEACH new performers that the "art" we talk about comes with a captial "A"? We are quick to condemn the kid who reveals secrets on You Tube and -- while I hate seeing it too -- from his perspective he's only sharing a secret that he has already purchased and the value of that secret is the price he paid. SO he can do ANYTHING he wants to with it.

Our culture is clashing with their culture and no one understands what the other guy is fussing about.

I am not sure if there IS a solution to this. But I DO know that I can't spend my remaining five years of performing looking over my shoulder and wondering what some kid is talking about on the internet.

Let's just say that some of us CHOOSE not to market fast food miracles.

David
Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Except bears. Bears will kill you.


www.MindGemsBrainTrust.com
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Mark_Chandaue
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I'm not personally a fan of ebooks, there is something comforting about having a physical book in hand. However there are two sides to every coin, producing a high quality physical book is expensive. I personally invested around 10 grand getting Harpacrown to market with absolutely no idea if it would sell more than a handful of copies. Sure I had confidence in my material from the stand point of having worked it and refined it and worked it more and refined it more etc but that does not mean that others would like it. Sure several people I respect pushed me over a number of years to release this stuff some of which I have held onto since the late 70's other than sharing with friends at conventions etc.

An ebook would be a safe option, were I not in a reasonable position financially it would have been the only option. Sure I could have used a print on demand service such as lulu to produce a physical book with limited risk but once I caved in to the pressure to publish the material I wanted to produce something that I would be proud to bear my name. To me personally my name and reputation is worth vastly more than even a best seller would generate. The two things that I have released have been devoid of hype and have been solid and workable. But that's just me, and I'm very glad of the fact that the end result is something that I can be proud to put my name to.

There is some really solid and powerful material out there in ebook form such as the works of Sean Waters and Matt Mellow, likewise Scott Creasey may make his videos at home but the material is rock solid and high quality.

As long as I have been in magic there has been an endless stream of tatt released, but likewise there has been some real gold released. The only thing that has changed is the volumes of both and the pricing at both ends of the scale due to the ease of publishing and the ease of access. Personally I tend to be very cautious of new material and more interested in who is behind it rather than the what. I tend to enjoy the gold and tune out the white noise.

Mark
Mark Chandaue A.I.M.C.
Harpacrown is available from
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Harpacrown Too is available from
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Ophiuchus is available from
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Totally Free Will is available from
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Harrybowman
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Quote:
On Sep 20, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
Great, glad you feel better now. Now can we get back to the original topic and point of this thread?


When this went downhill I do not recall you interfering or moderating. On the contrary. And now you are asking to get back on topic.

Once an *******, always an *******

-the newbie-
ed wood
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I seem to have inadvertently caused this thread to go off the rails a little so to try and take it back on line I'll instead upset someone else!
How to make enemies and irritate people, the new self help book by Ed Wood coming soon.
In my earlier post I alluded to a trick in latest and greatest that I was interested in but was put off by the price, a lack of a video, and the same old voices praising it. This effect is by Red Devil. Now I have heard genuinely excellent things about Red Devil and his releases by people I respect so this most certainly is not an attack on him or the quality of his work. He does though seem to have fallen into the same bad marketing habits of so many on here. There's talk of a demo video which was available to people on his email list but not to those who don't want to be inundated with more marketing emails. There's one of those weird review videos by Madison talking about how great it is but not ever really discussing the effect. It's a self released ebook at $35. Now for all I know this might be the greatest trick ever and worth ten times that. It's impossible to know though as I don't seem to be capable of watching a video of it. I'm obviously not mixing in the right circles. In a recent post Red Devil has alluded to a new release of this effect with wallet sized cards. Maybe that is how it should have been released in the first place. Does that add something to it that was missing from the original? Maybe cards and a booklet would justify a $35 price tag but an ebook alone seems a little steep. It really is hard for me to judge though as I don't own the effect and I wont consider purchasing it until I see a video and videos don't seem to be available to low lifes such as myself.
I want to stress again this is not an attack on Red Devil or Phedon or anyone for that matter, just the marketing techniques that everyone seems to employ.
Am I alone in thinking that publishing an ebook shows a lack of respect for your material? I might be showing my age here though. Most people don't print off ebooks, most can be read in ten minutes and forgotten. How many of your favourite effects can be found in an ebook? When you're researching a routine you may find yourself going through the books on your bookshelf but I'm sure I'm not alone in never turning to my computer to seek out a forgotten ebook. They seem like throw away items. Easy to produce, no risk, if they don't sell you haven't lost anything but the time spent writing them. Throw a huge price tag on them, you never know, someone may buy them.
Ok, have I upset enough people yet? If not how about this? I think the bearded, tattooed mentalist look is really silly Smile
RedDevil
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Hi, all. I don't normally weigh in on these types of things, but I thought I would just deal with a few basics.

1. Ed...I apologize if you have been upset with me, brother. I am not ignoring you, and I cannot conceive of why you would say you're a lowlife just because I haven't sent you a demo of my effect. With that said, I sent a full performance demo to over 300 people on my mailing list about a month ago, posted in a few Facebook groups (then took it down), and posted one on the Café for a couple of days. It's the first time I have ever posted a demo in my life, and I was trying to earn credibility and respect by being willing to post it, and it backfired on me. One of the reviewers of my ebook didn't speak highly of my performance in the demo even after I told people I was not a professional performer, so I quit posting it out of anxiety and insecurity (he had every right to his opinion, so I don't fault him; in fact he has endorsed my work multiple times over the last few years).

With that said, I tried to tell people I am a creator, not a professional performer, and I have never tried to act otherwise. I didn't want people judging the principle/routine by my performance so I took it down. If you would like to see the demo, just email me a reddevilmentalism@g.mail.com, and I would be glad to show it to you. I work during the day, and I don't get to post for often 12 hours at a time. Again, I apologize if you thought I was ignoring you on purpose.

2. I really can't say much about how I price my ebooks. I guess my customers can say more than I do whether what I charge is fair. I don't publish 16-page PDF's multiple times a year with half-brained ideas and charge 30 bucks for them. I have published 4 major e-books in the last four years: 777, Operation Gemini, ET Q&A, and now TITE. All of them have been upwards of 60-100 pages, and they represented a boatload of work and creativity that I put into them.

I will point out one fact that I just saw in my PayPal stats just the other day: half of my sales from TITE have been repeat customers of previous works. Many of those customers have purchased every single thing I have ever published. I market my books heavily when I release them, but then I have to accept that reviews will come after the sales occur. I would like to think I have earned the reputation of being honest, polite, and publishing quality material. While I am positive that not all of my customers have liked everything I have published, I feel confident that even they would say I didn't publish trash or crappy manuscripts. I guess you could dig up the threads on all four of those books on Café and decide for yourself. Finally, knowing that my books have been pirated all over the world and thousands of people have read my books for free, I charge what I think is a fair price: high enough so that most would think twice about giving someone else the book for free, but not something ridiculous.

3. I love real books too. But I don't have the means or time to publish and ship them. I mean this with all respect, but I have never mislead anyone that I am selling an E-book. Not only do I tell them it is an ebook, but I give a font size and page count. While I respect that many people want a real book (totally), many people do not mind buying an ebook, and hundreds of them have purchased them from me (multiple times). Again, I totally respect that if people don't like ebooks, they won't purchase my work.

4. As for my book TITE and my new effect Multi-TITE (physical product), I respectfully will just allow my customers to decide what is best for them. While Multi-TITE is a physical effect product (my first), it is an application of the ebook TITE, which is NOT an effect, but a book about a principle and several sample routines. If people don't think they will enjoy and use the heck out of the new tool contained in Multi-TITE, then I expect to have several extra sets in junk drawer...At least I tried to do something I thought was cool and people would enjoy. See below to #5.

5. Finally, I realize there are those that resent the fact that one can self-publish effects and routines. I know I will never change their minds. Some of them I consider friends. But I don't think they share the only correct opinion, and I don't think they own the store when it comes to love, passion, and a place in these arts we love so much. I have loved magic and mentalism all my life, and I got my start in publishing by getting two card tricks published in the Linking Ring (two of my proudest days!). I love to write, and my passion for the art is pure, just like most of you guys. So you know what I did? I went for it! I said to myself that I have some good ideas, and I accomplished my dream of writing a BOOK (777)...And then something wonderful happened...People liked it...Famous people. It was a dream come true, and I hope it is okay to admit that I was proud. I like to write, and I love the art. And I found the people were so friendly, and they shared and they helped...I share that with you because, I guess I am not going to apologize for trying to accomplish my life-long dream and love. If I waited for someone to give me permission to share my ideas and offer them on the market, then I would have waited a long time.

In the end, I am hoping that most people think that RedDevil is honest, he's nice, and he had some pretty cool ideas in his ebooks. If I have offended anyone with this post, it was not my intent. In the meantime, I will let my customers and friends decide whether my current or future books are worth the price or not. I am always accessible and open to questions, and I wish you all well.

Quote:
On Sep 20, 2017, ed wood wrote:
I seem to have inadvertently caused this thread to go off the rails a little so to try and take it back on line I'll instead upset someone else!
How to make enemies and irritate people, the new self help book by Ed Wood coming soon.
In my earlier post I alluded to a trick in latest and greatest that I was interested in but was put off by the price, a lack of a video, and the same old voices praising it. This effect is by Red Devil. Now I have heard genuinely excellent things about Red Devil and his releases by people I respect so this most certainly is not an attack on him or the quality of his work. He does though seem to have fallen into the same bad marketing habits of so many on here. There's talk of a demo video which was available to people on his email list but not to those who don't want to be inundated with more marketing emails. There's one of those weird review videos by Madison talking about how great it is but not ever really discussing the effect. It's a self released ebook at $35. Now for all I know this might be the greatest trick ever and worth ten times that. It's impossible to know though as I don't seem to be capable of watching a video of it. I'm obviously not mixing in the right circles. In a recent post Red Devil has alluded to a new release of this effect with wallet sized cards. Maybe that is how it should have been released in the first place. Does that add something to it that was missing from the original? Maybe cards and a booklet would justify a $35 price tag but an ebook alone seems a little steep. It really is hard for me to judge though as I don't own the effect and I wont consider purchasing it until I see a video and videos don't seem to be available to low lifes such as myself.
I want to stress again this is not an attack on Red Devil or Phedon or anyone for that matter, just the marketing techniques that everyone seems to employ.
Am I alone in thinking that publishing an ebook shows a lack of respect for your material? I might be showing my age here though. Most people don't print off ebooks, most can be read in ten minutes and forgotten. How many of your favourite effects can be found in an ebook? When you're researching a routine you may find yourself going through the books on your bookshelf but I'm sure I'm not alone in never turning to my computer to seek out a forgotten ebook. They seem like throw away items. Easy to produce, no risk, if they don't sell you haven't lost anything but the time spent writing them. Throw a huge price tag on them, you never know, someone may buy them.
Ok, have I upset enough people yet? If not how about this? I think the bearded, tattooed mentalist look is really silly Smile
www.reddevilmentalism.com
F-F-U-L-Ri-F-F-Li-R-U-F-F
RedDevil
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PS...I will risk derision here and say one more thing to anyone reading this who has ever had the dream of writing a magic/mentalism book or marketing an effect of your own:

If you have a great idea and you know in your heart it is quality, go for it. If your goal is to add to the art and publish something on your own, go for it. Yes, you can ask around for some opinions (and you should; this has saved me numerous times from a horrible idea that I thought was amazing), but heck, even if they hate it, if you still believe in it, go for it anyways. As long as you are honest and fair in the way you do it and advertise it, follow your dream. If it is good, nobody is going to care whether you are a hobbyist or a no-name or a Devil on Café or not. If it is not good, it will flop. If it flops, at least you followed your dream and you tried to be extra-ordinary. You will never know unless you try. Just be honest and be prepared to open yourself to criticism. But if it's good, it's worth the risk!

There's a bunch of us all over the world. People who have loved these arts since we were 7 years old. If you have a magic/mentalism book in your head, write it.
www.reddevilmentalism.com
F-F-U-L-Ri-F-F-Li-R-U-F-F
Martin Pulman
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Quote:
On Sep 20, 2017, RedDevil wrote:
There's a bunch of us all over the world. People who have loved these arts since we were 7 years old. If you have a magic/mentalism book in your head, write it.


Absolutely. And, having written it -and having charged people money for it - creators should expect and welcome criticism of it, good AND bad. It means people are treating what you are doing seriously, and not holding your hand and patting you on the head saying "well done", the way we do with children at the school play. If you wish to be treated like a professional (and when you charge, that is what you are saying) then expect to be treated the same way other professionals are treated in other performance arts.

Mentalism is a brilliant performance art. No less great than the dramatic arts or the musical arts. it would be absurd if, during my career as an actor I got into arguments with people on the internet who didn't like my work, or started a spat with the reviewer in the Times because he gave me a bad review. When you charge people money for your work in the entertainment business/performance arts you are asking to be critiqued and analysed -and everyone from online amateurs to newspaper professionals will do it-if you're lucky. Embrace it and develop a tough skin.
Mark_Chandaue
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Quote:
Am I alone in thinking that publishing an ebook shows a lack of respect for your material?

I certainly don't think that. There are many good reasons to publish ebooks. Many people prefer an ebook over a physical book because it can be delivered instantly, can be easily carried on a phone, tablet or ereader. Can have links to online resources and can be indexed and searched. That's just off the top of my head. There are some great ebooks out there including, but not limited to, those in my prior post.

My own personal preference is for physical books, I just find them more gratifying..I love the weight, feel and smell of a book. I like the sound of the pages turning. I personally wanted something that would live on in physical form. I see digital content as transient. One massive Solar flare and it could all be gone for good.

Mark
Mark Chandaue A.I.M.C.
Harpacrown is available from
http://www.harpacrown.co.uk
Harpacrown Too is available from
http://www.harpacrown.co.uk/?product=harpacrown-too
Ophiuchus is available from
http://www.harpacrown.co.uk/?product=ophiuchus
Totally Free Will is available from
http://www.harpacrown.co.uk/?product=totally-free-will
IAIN
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Quote:
On Sep 21, 2017, Martin Pulman wrote:
{sic}or started a spat with the reviewer in the Times because he gave me a bad review. When you charge people money for your work in the entertainment business/performance arts you are asking to be critiqued and analysed -and everyone from online amateurs to newspaper professionals will do it-if you're lucky. Embrace it and develop a tough skin. {sic}


I find this a little funny - as I know of some actors and actresses who absolutely dodge all reviews, all critics, and have life long feuds with those that review their work...

and I know of known mentalists who never read their reviews either (unless its excellent and if they have representation, will pull it for a quote)

Stephen Fry once said:
"“Picture this scene. A critic arrives at the gates of heaven. 'And what did you do?' asks Saint Peter. 'Well', says the dead soul. 'I criticised things'. 'I beg your pardon?' 'You know, other people wrote things, performed things, painted things and I said stuff like, "thin and unconvincing", "turgid and uninspired", "competent and serviceable,"...you know'."
I've asked to be banned
Martin Pulman
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Quote:
On Sep 21, 2017, IAIN wrote:

Stephen Fry once said:
"“Picture this scene. A critic arrives at the gates of heaven. 'And what did you do?' asks Saint Peter. 'Well', says the dead soul. 'I criticised things'. 'I beg your pardon?' 'You know, other people wrote things, performed things, painted things and I said stuff like, "thin and unconvincing", "turgid and uninspired", "competent and serviceable,"...you know'."


Well, Stephen Fry is a man who disappeared and went missing for days, abandoning the theatre production he was in after a bad review. He left the cast, crew, producers and financial backers high and dry. You have to develop a thicker skin than that if you want to be able to survive in show business. Bad reviews hurt and are painful, but they are an absolutely indispensable part of any creative industry. And, again, if you are charging people money for your service, expect your customers to comment honestly on it.

And if no one is allowed to criticise, then we will be left with pages and pages of "this blew my mind", "it's going straight into my act" "I would gladly have sold my mother and all my children for this effect, so £100 is a bargain" type comments -and the Café will truly have ceased to have any function.
Philemon Vanderbeck
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Stephen Fry suffers from bipolar disorder. Too much stress can trigger irrational behavior in people with this malady.
Professor Philemon Vanderbeck
That Creepy Magician
"I use my sixth sense to create the illusion of possessing the other five."
phedonbilek
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Quote:
On Sep 21, 2017, Martin Pulman wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 21, 2017, IAIN wrote:

Stephen Fry once said:
"“Picture this scene. A critic arrives at the gates of heaven. 'And what did you do?' asks Saint Peter. 'Well', says the dead soul. 'I criticised things'. 'I beg your pardon?' 'You know, other people wrote things, performed things, painted things and I said stuff like, "thin and unconvincing", "turgid and uninspired", "competent and serviceable,"...you know'."


Well, Stephen Fry is a man who disappeared and went missing for days, abandoning the theatre production he was in after a bad review. He left the cast, crew, producers and financial backers high and dry. You have to develop a thicker skin than that if you want to be able to survive in show business. Bad reviews hurt and are painful, but they are an absolutely indispensable part of any creative industry. And, again, if you are charging people money for your service, expect your customers to comment honestly on it.

And if no one is allowed to criticise, then we will be left with pages and pages of "this blew my mind", "it's going straight into my act" "I would gladly have sold my mother and all my children for this effect, so £100 is a bargain" type comments -and the Café will truly have ceased to have any function.


Martin, I fully agree with what you wrote. But the real problem is, to me, the lack of consideration coming from certain people. Criticize, give your opinion, but why is there a need to be insulting, or agressive? Why this negativity? I'm not speaking about you of course, just giving an example.
Moreover, I think most authors/creators will accept criticism, but there are certain boundaries. Can you criticize Red Devil for not having included every idea that came out later in his original ebook? Does that make TITE incomplete? I mean... I read some posts and I admit I'm puzzled. So, if this is what you call "criticism", then our definitions are different. To me criticism should be constructive. Here, it is quite the opposite.

Phedon
...The only easy day is yesterday...
Martin Pulman
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Quote:
On Sep 21, 2017, phedonbilek wrote:
Moreover, I think most authors/creators will accept criticism, but there are certain boundaries. Can you criticize Red Devil for not having included every idea that came out later in his original ebook? Does that make TITE incomplete? I mean... I read some posts and I admit I'm puzzled. So, if this is what you call "criticism", then our definitions are different. To me criticism should be constructive. Here, it is quite the opposite.

Phedon


Hi Phedon,

I would say the boundaries are when you make personal, slanderous attacks on individuals. There are no other limits to criticism of a professionally released creative work. You demand constructive negative criticism, but you don't make the same demands of the pages of posts full of hyperbolic praise of effects, often by people who didn't pay for them and many of whom have obviously barely skim-read them. Unvarnished praise is not constructive. It is positively harmful to people's wallets.
phedonbilek
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Quote:
On Sep 21, 2017, Martin Pulman wrote:

Hi Phedon,

I would say the boundaries are when you make personal, slanderous attacks on individuals. There are no other limits to criticism of a professionally released creative work. You demand constructive negative criticism, but you don't make the same demands of the pages of posts full of hyperbolic praise of effects, often by people who didn't pay for them and many of whom have obviously barely skim-read them. Unvarnished praise is not constructive. It is positively harmful to people's wallets.


I agree. It doesn't mean though that since there is hyperbolic praise on something one MUST find ANY reason to criticize it. It's what, like... a kind of reaction? A profound esoteric desire to bring balance into the cosmos? I must say that it still eludes me. I don't get it. You talk about skim-reading when refering to the praise. You DO believe the ones criticizing have fully read and studied the material before going out for blood. You believe that, do you?

Anyway. I respect your point of view Martin. It's just the way the world is. There is a bit of everything. When I started I did believe this little one, the magic world, was different. Man was I wrong.

Peace,

Phedon
...The only easy day is yesterday...
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