The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Fast food mentalism -gourmet food prices? (21 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3
IAIN
View Profile
Eternal Order
england
18817 Posts

Profile of IAIN
For me, part of the value of the Fry quote is the idea that everyone is a critic...and all are entitled to express their thoughts...

However, just because you can, doesn't necessarily mean the critique is of any value...someone might critique any work ever created, someone might, heavens forefend say Withnail & I is a terrible film...and you think, ok - you have your reasons...then they say 'citizen Kane is tripe too', so you ask "what's your favourite film?" And they say "all Adam Sandler films are beyond genius"...

And so it goes...

It's partly to do with identifying with the critic, trusting their opinion because you've agreed with them in the past...but even the best most even and knowledgeable of critics can sometimes miss something...and maybe if say, Riggs started to do a review show, we'd pay a lot not attention, because he has professional performance experience, is a creator, is well read and eloquent and fair.

I don't feel any reviewer have all those credentials, apart from jheff's site...
I've asked to be banned
Martin Pulman
View Profile
Inner circle
London
3389 Posts

Profile of Martin Pulman
Quote:
On Sep 21, 2017, phedonbilek wrote:

Anyway. I respect your point of view Martin. It's just the way the world is. There is a bit of everything. When I started I did believe this little one, the magic world, was different. Man was I wrong.

Peace,

Phedon

Different in what way? That you could charge people for a product and be free from criticism? You continue to make silly veiled inferences that there is some sort of ethics or morality involved here. "When I started I did believe this little one, the magic world, was different. Man was I wrong." is an absurd thing to write. If you share something with me as a friend and ask me for my opinion I'll sugar coat it and make you feel good about yourself. If you charge me £40 for your work, I'll tell you the truth as I see it. Then others can offer their opinion, and everyone is free to make up their own mind.
Martin Pulman
View Profile
Inner circle
London
3389 Posts

Profile of Martin Pulman
Quote:
On Sep 21, 2017, IAIN wrote:
For me, part of the value of the Fry quote is the idea that everyone is a critic...and all are entitled to express their thoughts...

However, just because you can, doesn't necessarily mean the critique is of any value...someone might critique any work ever created, someone might, heavens forefend say Withnail & I is a terrible film...and you think, ok - you have your reasons...then they say 'citizen Kane is tripe too', so you ask "what's your favourite film?" And they say "all Adam Sandler films are beyond genius"...



never trust anyone who doesn't have 'Withnail & I' in their top 10 films.
phedonbilek
View Profile
Special user
Greece, Cameroon, France
793 Posts

Profile of phedonbilek
Quote:
On Sep 21, 2017, Martin Pulman wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 21, 2017, phedonbilek wrote:

Anyway. I respect your point of view Martin. It's just the way the world is. There is a bit of everything. When I started I did believe this little one, the magic world, was different. Man was I wrong.

Peace,

Phedon

Different in what way? That you could charge people for a product and be free from criticism? You continue to make silly veiled inferences that there is some sort of ethics or morality involved here. "When I started I did believe this little one, the magic world, was different. Man was I wrong." is an absurd thing to write. If you share something with me as a friend and ask me for my opinion I'll sugar coat it and make you feel good about yourself. If you charge me £40 for your work, I'll tell you the truth as I see it. Then others can offer their opinion, and everyone is free to make up their own mind.


I make silly veiled inferences because I'm silly. Sorry. I will not contradict you anymore.

You're right.

Phedon over
...The only easy day is yesterday...
MentalistCreationLab
View Profile
Inner circle
1526 Posts

Profile of MentalistCreationLab
Quote:
On Sep 20, 2017, Martin Pulman wrote:
Once upon a time, mentalism was a rare beast. Very few people performed mentalism and very few mentalism items were available in magic stores. It was understood therefore that mentalism items were going to be priced at a much higher level than ordinary magic releases. You were paying for rare knowledge which was hardly ever publicly exposed and, as almost everyone who performed mentalism did so on stage, you were paying for something that could potentially be used professionally and earn back the investment in quick time.


What time are you talking about? (referring to your second sentence above)

Mentalism was mostly sold in book (booklet) form and those books actually cost less than most of the magic books at the time. Books on things like two person codes where easy to find in the discount sales racks usually shortly after release. And "It was understood therefore that mentalism items were going to be priced at a much higher level than ordinary magic releases." No it was not! At least during the 1980s through the mid 1980s. Even before that if you look at the number of adds placed in the magazines of the day like Linking Ring and others the price of those works where really cheap. Usually around 1-3 dollars at the same time the magicians were charging 10 or more for these types of booklets. Booklets were the standard form that mentalism was sold in during most of the 1970s and in to the 1980s. Even the packet style effects were affordable. One of the reasons for this was mentalist did not buy a lot in the way of the painted magic boxes and other apparatus that need to be built.

The booklets mentioned above were the PDFs of there day. Just so I am clear.

Later the market place began wanting magic and mentalism on demand meaning they did not want to wait for a product to be delivered by the post which could as they said during the period before 2000 "Please allow two weeks for delivery". Then with the rise of the new technology in the mass market and the development of rapid transfer of media in all forms having to wait 2 weeks was finally over. Now were just waiting on the transporter to be developed and released so we can by past the post for shipping of products. Years form now we may have replicator technology that will all a magi for upload a code to the main system for a psychical product then after the buyer sends you there money in a few moments the product will be cloned and built. And at that time the prices will still be high.

Now "You were paying for rare knowledge which was hardly ever publicly exposed" Really the magicians have been exposing our tricks since at least 1920s to the PUBLIC,by 1925 with the infernal work that was released this secret knowledge became one of the early best sellers. Granted many of these exposed effects where created by the magicians who taught them to the mediums who they were exposing nevertheless the secrets of the core effects of mentalism were already well known in the public although they were easily forgotten by the same public. Which was a good thing to. Plus just so I am clear the actual Spiritualist did not use those things mentioned in that book. Then a couple of decades later Al Baker and his gang began his quest to hide the history of mentalism fueling more of this pseudo history of mentalism. Then by the 1970s Psychic Mafia would be released which was partially true. Yet another best seller sold to the public. In fact there where many of these types of works published for the general public and not just the magi. And the whole "your buying the secret" thing started so dealers did not have to take returns on items unless defective. Which what that bull was about.

And this whole argument about what to charge is ridiculous too. So your telling me hat we as creators should sell our works for very little so they can be purchased by the knock off artists overseas so they can sell them for even less. Or release the in a low priced PDF say 9.99 I can sell around 100 copies and then it can be downloaded on a torrent site 10000 times for free. That's at the point my prices went up on PDFs wheich I seldom even write any more. Also I spoken with many book dealers in both magic and collectible books and they all say that sales are down for the printed word. Which at times is good because one can get some better prices on some rare works.

So Martin tell me again why you came up with this thread and answer me this what propaganda agenda are you pushing? Because your opening statements are not based on any actual facts. And my statement are not about you personally if someone else would have posted this farce I would say the same thing to them as well. Although in all fairness I kind of glad it was you. So what the agenda your pushing. Hey it's cool with me if your using this to try to drum up interest in a product or something else but just come out and say it so I do not have to read a bunch of nonfactual statements about the price f products as the history of mentalism tells a different story. While there were a few products that were released with high prices such as one by Boris Minlov in the late 1970s I think for a 1000 these were scarce. Not forgetting to mention that product really was that good for its time and a 1000 was not out of line. Plus it took me the better part of 20 years to get a hold of a copy. It was also released in a rather cleaver way first if you wanted to buy it Boris would send you a manuscript telling you what the product was about in full with out the reveal of the secret. Then you could make a decision if it was right for you to buy. Which was very fair since the product had a high price tag and only x number were ever released.

I also think charging a reasonable price for new works that do not contain rehashed stuff from Jinks, Magick, Invocation, IBDEM and more can be justified. I not a bottom feeder and my works are in the 50 dollar range for the most part they also contain things that's not in the mentalism literature for the most part as the deal with various aspects of what used to be classified by scientific realms under Psychical Research I just figured out how to actually achieve some of these things then I created other effects based on new principles. Now my manufactured products use expensive equipment and high end materials which cost a lot and the profit margin is way low for the equipment used and time spent building these items.

I say it again this whole thread from the very beginning when the first post was made has a hidden agenda.
Martin Pulman
View Profile
Inner circle
London
3389 Posts

Profile of Martin Pulman
Quote:
On Sep 21, 2017, phedonbilek wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 21, 2017, Martin Pulman wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 21, 2017, phedonbilek wrote:

Anyway. I respect your point of view Martin. It's just the way the world is. There is a bit of everything. When I started I did believe this little one, the magic world, was different. Man was I wrong.

Peace,

Phedon

Different in what way? That you could charge people for a product and be free from criticism? You continue to make silly veiled inferences that there is some sort of ethics or morality involved here. "When I started I did believe this little one, the magic world, was different. Man was I wrong." is an absurd thing to write. If you share something with me as a friend and ask me for my opinion I'll sugar coat it and make you feel good about yourself. If you charge me £40 for your work, I'll tell you the truth as I see it. Then others can offer their opinion, and everyone is free to make up their own mind.


I make silly veiled inferences because I'm silly. Sorry. I will not contradict you anymore.

You're right.

Phedon over
No worries, Phedon. All just opinions at the end of the day.
Sven Rygh
View Profile
Inner circle
Oslo, Norway.
1945 Posts

Profile of Sven Rygh
Quote:
On Sep 20, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
I agree and also when some name pros endorse or add their name to some of these releases (as a testimonial, etc.) which creates a false sense of quality and level of what it is. I know several top pros who stopped offering such "reviews" or "opinions" for just this reason.


Absolutely!
The only thing the "serial endorsers" (you all know who they are) contribute with, is imho to effectively trivialize (read: destroy) mentalism

In addition to all endorsements and recommendations, these occur in a strange one's habit of swapping forewords in each other's books, something which heavily is used in the marketing of them
I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine.

I do not think I particularly like this, but who am I, who can say that?
It's been a long time since I've purchased anything to a significant degree,
- I have seen no reason to do that
Martin Pulman
View Profile
Inner circle
London
3389 Posts

Profile of Martin Pulman
Quote:
On Sep 21, 2017, MentalistCreationLab wrote:
What time are you talking about? (referring to your second sentence above)


Pre 2000s. Pre the internet and Derren Brown. I have no personal recollection of the mentalism business in the 1920s or the 1970s so can only speak from personal experience. I have an old copy of the Davenports catalogue from the 1990s in front of me. It has 458 pages. The section on mentalism is 19 pages long. There are 1,008 items for sale in the catalogue -there are 31 items in the Mentalism section. As I said, mentalism was a rare beast compared to the other magical arts.

Quote:
Mentalism was mostly sold in book (booklet) form and those books actually cost less than most of the magic books at the time. Books on things like two person codes where easy to find in the discount sales racks usually shortly after release. And "It was understood therefore that mentalism items were going to be priced at a much higher level than ordinary magic releases." No it was not!


Most of the cheap booklets and pamphlets I used to find in magic stores were old material that had achieved a kind of public domain status or were being reprinted cheaply. In the Davenports catalogue, I've pulled out of my drawer, apart from large-scale stage illusions, there are only a handful of items that cost over 50 pounds. They are almost all in the mentalism section. That confirms how I remember it, but again, things may have been very different in the 1970s. Maybe every second effect was a mentalism effect and they were all dirt cheap.

Quote:
The booklets mentioned above were the PDFs of there day. Just so I am clear.

You make it sound as if nothing was different in the old days. As if there were always endless streams of mentalism effects being self-published in booklet form every year. That would be the equivalent of PDF's today. There weren't, in my experience. You were lucky if a couple of new mentalism effects came out every month.

Quote:
Now "You were paying for rare knowledge which was hardly ever publicly exposed" Really the magicians have been exposing our tricks since at least 1920s ... Then a couple of decades later Al Baker and his gang began his quest to hide the history of mentalism fueling more of this pseudo history of mentalism. Then by the 1970s Psychic Mafia would be released which was partially true. Yet another best seller sold to the public.

The Psychic Mafia was a book exposing fake mediums. It is not an exposure of the performance art of mentalism, even if there is an overlap in technique. Same with the exposure books on Geller, Spiritualists etc. They were claiming to be real and put themselves in the firing line. When mentalism-the performance art- was performed on TV it wasn't immediately subjected to a daily public discussion of the effects and methods. It was only large-scale publicity stunts that drew that sort of attention. Youtube has enabled the instant exposure of every store-bought mentalism effect performed on television. It is utterly disingenuous to try and claim that is not a major change.

Quote:
And this whole argument about what to charge is ridiculous too. So your telling me hat we as creators should sell our works for very little so they can be purchased by the knock off artists overseas so they can sell them for even less.

I'm not telling you anything. I'm asking if mentalism is now overpriced as the knowledge is so cheaply and easily available and as many of the core mentalism effects are being performed at weddings, in table-hopping, in amateur youtube videos, on every TV talent show. When something becomes ubiquitous it usually loses its value, no?

Quote:
So Martin tell me again why you came up with this thread and answer me this what propaganda agenda are you pushing?So what the agenda your pushing. Hey it's cool with me if your using this to try to drum up interest in a product or something else but just come out and say it. I say it again this whole thread from the very beginning when the first post was made has a hidden agenda.

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about? Are you confusing me with someone else?
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Fast food mentalism -gourmet food prices? (21 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2021 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.27 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL