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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Las Vegas Shooting (6 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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tommy
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He had 23 guns and I guess he probably left them in his car and smuggled them in a few at a time in his golf bags, going in and out over the days he was there.

When an old respectable millionaire, and a well-known gambler books into a casino hotel, then you really couldn’t get the odds on a bog roll, that he would start shooting people as opposed to shooting dice.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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Quote:
On Oct 15, 2017, tommy wrote:
What is the relevance of the cameras in the casino to this case?

As mentioned, there were no cameras in the hallways which if there were may have helped. That is one of the security measures that Steve Wynn previously implemented in his hotels.
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That's exactly what I meant.

They claim they have cameras for securing games or protect their assets from bad personnel, etc., and yet there are still cheats and employees stealing as much as they can. They claim their hotels are safe, then I assumed they use cameras for it (even if, apparently, there are not cameras in all hallways though). Hence my doubts. What is the utility of all those cameras?
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Quote:
On Oct 15, 2017, tommy wrote:
He had 23 guns and I guess he probably left them in his car and smuggled them in a few at a time in his golf bags, going in and out over the days he was there.


No, he used suitcases and moreover he would not let the maids or housekeeping into his room for the entire time period he was there. That would not been allowed if he had been at a Wynn hotel and security would check if only to see if he was okay,i.e., to see if he had a heart attack or stroke.
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On Oct 15, 2017, AMcD wrote:
What is the utility of all those cameras?


The cameras are only there to protect the casino's assets, i.e., the casino table games, cashiers cage, slots, etc. and not to protect the customers, except indirectly to prevent liability against the casino operation.
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You're not particularly safe in ANY Las Vegas strip property, and it's probably not the best course of action to assume that you are.

Recall the 1998 Imperial Palace murder of Donald Idiens by Greg Chao, with Chao dragging Idiens dead body all over the hotel, eventually leaving him in a stairwell ... all without anybody being the wiser, let alone hotel security even being peripherally suspicious.
Nobody saw a thing.

You may be safer in 2017 in a Wynn property, but that only because Steve Wynn is a stand up guy that has taken a position that, indeed, you're not all that safe in a strip property - and he's the kind of guy to do something about it rather than go "on the cheap" to just make a buck.
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Geez! There's obviously a big difference between what the owners of such places say and the reality. Thanks for the info.

Just ran across that one, I found it interesting:

https://skift.com/2017/10/03/8-questions......hooting/
tommy
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Maybe so but I am not sure how cameras in the hallways would have helped when all they would have seen is a well-known millionaire and respectable good customer of the casino going in and out of his room with his golf bags or another bag.
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I should also mention that one of the safeguards that Wynn has incorporated is no guns are allowed in his hotels. If someone is carrying a gun, say a legal concealed gun or an open carry gun and it is discovered, he will be asked to leave the hotel. Presumably that restriction would also apply to guns in suitcases.

In a free and open society that exists in the US, it is a trade off between having personal freedoms and being subjected to more restrictive controls.
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On Oct 15, 2017, tommy wrote:
Maybe so but I am not sure how cameras in the hallways would have helped when all they would have seen is a well-known millionaire and respectable good customer of the casino going in and out of his room with his golf bags or another bag.


Once again we are not talking about a golf bag or another bag which minimizes the reality of the situation by diminution. We are talking about a large number of suitcases being carted up to a hotel room through the hallways.

Would hallway cameras have helped? That is speculative. I don't know but what I do know is it could not have hurt the situation and maybe it could have helped if security was on its toes and if they had been trained regarding activity that to me would be suspicious.

I think as the situation unfolds and the lawsuits hit, we will certainly learn more. I can almost guarantee that all hotel/casinos in Vegas will start to implements more strict security measures and procedures, if only to protect corporate from litigation.
tommy
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Firstly speculations always abound as everybody tries to make sense of nonsensical events like this. Some reports say that there were cameras in the hallways that were set up by the shooter, so that he could see and listen to the cops outside his room as and when they arrived. How do “we” know what we are talking about? Who told you how he got the guns into the room?
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Quote:
On Oct 15, 2017, tommy wrote:

...How do "we" know what we are talking about? Who told you how he got the guns into the room?


We learned this from the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department Sheriff on TV news conferences and at least that is the presumption???

Does anyone know that for certain...I don't know because there were no security cameras in the hallways and I am not privy to the confidential finding of the ongoing investigation. But it will all come out eventually I'm sure.

Incidentally incoming luggage is checked at the Wynn hotels...another one of the many precautions he has implemented but evidently that is not done at the Mandalay Bay.

By the way tommy, MGM corporate may be looking for a new Head of Security if you are interested. Smile
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I walked back and forth from my car to my room at least 30 or 40 times during my week at Treasure Island (wife and daughter Smile ).
On many of those trips I had luggage in my possession, or was carrying something to the car or to the room.
Once checked into the hotel on day #1, I never interacted with another hotel hospitality employee, or interacted with any hotel security for the entire week.

Indeed, walking from the parking garage to my room didn't take me anywhere near the front desk, nor did it take me through any security checkpoints.
With the room key-card in hand, you can come and go as you see fit to, with nobody the wiser.

I see this a a huge problem in light of recent events, and not just in Las Vegas - I don't recall anybody monitoring my coming and going from the street to my hotel room at the New York Marriott Marquis either ... a hotel that literally overlooks Times Square.
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Apparently, so far, not much is known:

“He didn’t bring all that up in one trip and he certainly didn’t have bellmen bring it up. Having been there for three days, he had the time to bring that up probably in either luggage or a golf bag or something of that nature,” said Sutton.

“It’s a little surprising that he could’ve hidden it well enough that when the maid service came in that they didn’t see anything but I think this is all part of the investigatory process that they’re going to have to really delve into.”
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Quote:
On Oct 16, 2017, AMcD wrote:

"It's a little surprising that he could/ve hidden it well enough that when the maid service came in that they didn't see anything but I think this is all part of the investigatory process that they/re going to have to really delve into."


Evidently he did not allow the maid service into his room so they could not see the weapons and ammunition clips stacked up. I believe he had the "Do Not Disturb" sign on his door the entire time, at least that is my understanding.
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Quote:
On Oct 16, 2017, Mr. Bones wrote:

I walked back and forth from my car to my room at least 30 or 40 times during my week at Treasure Island (wife and daughter Smile ).
On many of those trips I had luggage in my possession, or was carrying something to the car or to the room.
Once checked into the hotel on day #1, I never interacted with another hotel hospitality employee, or interacted with any hotel security for the entire week.


According the Steve Wynn in his interview, it cost him many millions of dollars to train his entire staff and implement the procedures in his hotels to protect against these type attacks.

It seems like for many hotel casino operations that it is not cost effective to spend this amount of money on the possibility something could happen. It really takes a tragic event such as this to spur other operations to start to implement precautions. Quite frankly I think the primary motivation in most cases is to protect against litigation and not necessarily to protect human life, but perhaps I am being pessimistic.

The world is very different place than it was 20 years ago...indeed even 10 years ago. These events were unheard of on US soil during most of my lifetime. The trade-off is between personal liberty vs. much more restrictions on our freedoms.

Interesting one of our founding fathers, Benjamin Franklin opined that those who give up their freedoms for security deserve neither freedom nor security. Freedom and personal liberty were prized above all else during the American Revolution.

Anyway you look at it, it is a tough trade-off.
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It's not a tough trade-off at all.

Many (but not all) Americans don't wish to discuss any sort of trade-off at all, which is entirely their right as citizens of a sovereign nation.

But the trade-off is actually extremely simple - and only requires a will to change.
It's a trade-off that countries like Canada, Great Britain, Australia, New Zealand, and many other first world countries made long ago.
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On Oct 16, 2017, Mr. Bones wrote:

It's not a tough trade-off at all...

...It's a trade-off that countries like Canada, Great Britain, Australia, New Zealand, and many other first world countries made long ago.


Interesting.

Can you be more specific as to the trade-off the Americans won't make that these other presumably more enlightened countries have made and would that have stopped this mass carnage?
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As an individual from those " other presumably more enlightened countries", perhaps I can comment.

In a nutshell me (and most of my mates) are completely boggled with Americas fascination with guns and the desire to keep the right to own one and bare arms.

I don't mean this as a criticism but.....and this is just an opinion that I'm sure can be contested and debated.....give up your bloody guns and problem solved. I realize it's not that simple, but IMHO until you reign the guns in, you will have a problem with not just mass shootings but single shootings that add up to extraordinary numbers.

Hotel cameras are NOT and shouldn't be the solution.

Just my 2 cents which I'm sure many here may not agree.
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@Zauberman:

Hi, welcome to the board if this is your first post here.

I believe it is indeed possible to stop future mass shooting events, however the solution does not involve further gun control measures or confiscation. Why? Because gun control does nothing to prevent mass shootings.

Just take a look at the Paris attacks perpetrated by ISIS. France has strict gun laws in line with what gun control advocates in the U.S. would like to see implemented. Even off-duty police officers in France were not allowed to carry their sidearms until after the Paris attacks in 2015.

French gun laws did nothing to stop ISIS terrorists from killing over 130 people in a single night using weapons already highly restricted in the country. All they accomplished was disarming innocent citizens and making them easy targets.

The nation of India also has some of the strictest gun laws in the world, yet this did nothing to prevent the Mumbai attacks in 2008 in which 164 people were killed.

Norway had extremely tough gun laws in 2011, but these were easily circumvented by Anders Breivik who murdered 69 members of a Workers Youth Camp on the island of Utoya.

I could go on and on and on about attacks in these more "enlightened" countries.

The only solution I can see if having a highly competent private security force (not robo cops or retires), and have private security measures implemented on these type occasions. These security people know what to look for and can respond quickly. The hotels also have to have intelligent security measures put in place. Of course, this costs money which is why has not been done, yet.

I should mention I have been to many gun shoes in Las Vegas. These are huge affairs with mobs of people, many of whom are carrying guns to be traded or sold. There are guns literally everywhere - and I mean everywhere.

And guess what, I have never seen anyone get out of line or threaten anyone. No one dare. Everyone is very well behaved and polite. Mass shooting here...never heard of one and highly unlikely because the perpetrator would maybe get off one shot or two before being taken down.

And try traveling through the desert and mountain areas of Arizona, Utah, Nevada, New Mexico and other western areas of the US where you can go days and miles and literally never see another human being or man-made structure. Of course, you may see some rattlesnakes, bears, mountain lions, bob cats, wolves and the like.

Not have a gun???? Be serious.

The most vulnerable places in the US are gun free zones, where there are large numbers of unprotected people, like schools, concerts, outdoor events, etc. Same exists in Europe.

Of course, I respect those who have a completely different opinion about guns. However, much as I am horrified to say this, I expect continued events such as what occurred at the Mandalay Bay and in Europe and other countries to continue regardless of the type of "weapons" used to do so.

It is pure insanity.
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