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Dannydoyle
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It certainly can't hurt when EXPERTS do such things I agree. When the people who think they know simply because they have an internet connection want to be as informed as the authorities then it is an issue.

How exactly were they "lax" in your mind? Seriously I want to know. Do you stop everyone who brings in luggage and search it? We live in a free society. To say that security was "lax" is a pretty serious charge and one that should be backed up. What EXACTLY was "lax" about the security at the hotel in your mind?

What is irritating is the armchair psychologists who think that they can prevent or reduce occurrence of horrible events if only THEY have information. How ludicrous. Thinking you know because of what you read on the internet is what is absurd.

But we live in the age of everyone being an expert. So there ya go. This very board is proof of that.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
AMcD
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So, for you, authorities are everything, know everything, are fair, can be trusted, etc.? And someone who hasn't got a degree or diploma is an idiot and has not the right to express a true advice, or simply can't? That's it? Just to be sure, you're a civil servant right? Only a civil servant can think that way.

What about your qualifications to judge this board by the way? You're a certified psychiatrist?
Dannydoyle
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I am saying that without being trained you have no valid opinion about ballistics. It is simple. Not that one is an idiot, only that one can not make judgments about things like science without proper training. Would you go to a doctor who did not posess a degree in what ailed you? I would not personally. Your mileage may vary. And no I am not a civil servant. That life is long past me. Former civil servant, current performer. So no not only a civil servant can think that way.

As for my judging the board who did that? This board has a lot of internet experts. Lots of those who read about the life of a performer or a gambler and then somehow think they actually know. That is not a judgment that one needs a degree, it is an observation that is being made. Everyone is an expert. Not a psychological diagnosis, a simple observation of behavior.

You can have an opinion about anything you like. You are free to express that opinion in any way you like as far as I am concerned. You are not entitled for that opinion to be correct. It is simple. Is that really such a strange position to take?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
AMcD
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Ballistics? I'm not talking about ballistics, I'm talking about things in general.

Yes, for very accurate things, you need a degree, to have a long training, a long background. But life is not made of surgeons, satellites programmers or ballistics experts only. As long as you have the brains to be objective, as long as you can elaborate an opinion, you can talk about many things, even if you have no former training about those things! I'd like to remind you that many geniuses had 0 degree, 0 diploma... and that many degrees people get nowadays are worth approximately zilch.

About trusting authorities, allow me to keep my distances. Here's a very known example. In France, my former country, when Chernobyl plant exploded in 1986, the French authorities said that nobody should worry, the radioactive clouds could not harm anyone because, like a miracle, they didn't cross our borders. Apparently, the clouds stopped right before France borders! Isn't it nice? Yet, we now know that it was a lie and that thousands of people were affected one way or another (cancers mainly). Yeah, always trust your authorities.
Dannydoyle
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Ok what alternative is there? Loony conspiracy theories? Sure go that route.

So many great discoveries were made by people with no training. You're right. I wonder why science exists at all? Good point.

If you want to never trust scientists or authorities because they have lied in the past this is completely your prerogative. You are free to believe whatever you wish and I am not here to talk you out of it. There are plenty of examples of Government cover ups and science being wrong and non trained people being brilliant and making discoveries.

But as far as odds go I would bet on trained scientists. But that is me. You are free to believe what you like and live how you like. That is what rocks about free society. I respect that.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
AMcD
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I don't claim nor search for an alternative, I'm simply debating.

I didn't say that one should NEVER trust scientists, authorities, experts, etc. I didn't say that science is useless or something (me saying that? Do you know who I am?). You are the one who says that, I didn't.

In a perfect world, where nobody would be obsessed by money and power, yes, I would give more credit to experts or politicians. But, unfortunately, I don't live in such a world, therefore I keep my eyes opened. Generally speaking, I trust surgeons or any high level and high skilled people. Most of them, certainly not all of them. There are crooks everywhere. I respect diplomas, degrees, but not all of them. See, I have some myself, but when I see 25 years old guys supposedly clever because they have 10 very expensive and high level qualifications hardly able to write 25 words without 5 mistakes, I strongly doubt we have the SAME level. Read everyday news and you'll see bad people everywhere, in all professions, coming from all social classes. The world is not white or back my friend.

No you're not automatically clever because you have a degree, and no you're not an idiot because you haven't got any. You're not an expert because your diploma says so either. It's more complicated than that! If it was so easy, so crystal clear, why experts rarely agree?

If you intend to debate with me in the future, please, stop putting words in my mouth and don't read more than I write. I respect anybody's opinion as long as he sets out his argument. I like debating, but with mutual respect.

Cordially.
Cagliostro
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Everyone is entitled to have and give his or her opinion on this BB. EVERYONE. And he or she is entitled to do so without being subject to condemnation or ridicule for giving that opinion.

If someone disagrees with someone else, simply make the case. To criticize with backhanded sarcastic insults serves no purpose and this thread will simply end up getting deleted. Even worse, many people who have finally started to post will stop giving opinions and probably leave the BB.

No one has absolute knowledge or understanding, nor does anyone have to be a specialist or expert on a specific subject to post here. Even with experts, it is still opinion that other experts will often disagree with.

So please, let's lighten up. In the scheme of things, in one year no one will even remember this thread or who posted what.
tommy
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It cuts both ways it seems me. I mean, let us consider the roles the various experts played leading up to this mass murder. We have gun experts selling powerful weapons and admonitions to this man on a grand scale, we have medical experts dealing with man and prescribing him mind-bending drugs, experts in security in the casino not noticing anything unusual, the police and intelligence experts who did not seem to be aware of his at all despite the fact that he throwing millions of dollars around. The experts are the men that will not be blamed for anything - or ist nothing. Do these experts have blood on their hands?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Mr. Bones
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The following bit of news from Fox is interesting, in that it leans to supporting what Cag is saying in this thread.
The authorities would have had this information in hand on the night of the shooting?
It's also the kind of thing that fosters conspiracy theorists to go wild, as it does appear to be something that could have been reported by police much earlier than today (Nov 1st).


"A Las Vegas police officer accidentally fired his gun in Stephen Paddock’s suite the night of the mass shooting, the department’s sheriff said Monday, breaking more than two weeks of silence and confirming for the first time that an officer fired his weapon during the Oct. 1 incident.

Sheriff Joe Lombardo said the gun went off after the officers made entry to the room, but the rounds were not fired in the room where Paddock was found dead........."
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AMcD
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@Danny

I don't have to apologize and I don't have to retract anything. Simply because I was asking you questions, which means that I wanted you to clarify some points that I possibly didn't get well while reading you. Asking questions is not putting words in someone's mouth.

But I'd agree that, because my poor command of the English language and coming from a VERY different culture than yours, it's likely that, at times, you may feel offended or, at the very least, you don't understand my points clearly. If you read me here for years, you know that I'm the last one who would offend anyone, therefore, rest assured that is has never been my intention (in case you think so...).

What about getting back to the point? I think we have many interesting questions here? How far can we trust authorities? How far can we trust experts? tommy make some relevant points I think.

Again, I'm not talking about some dude watching 2 videos on youtube and seeing conspiracy everywhere or believing he's got it because he read 3 pages on the web making him an expert. I'd like you to put the debate on a higher level.

I think you will agree that greed, cupidity or obsession of power turn some people minds upside down. And even people with great brains, who have terrific diplomas, degrees can be like that. Therefore, there is always the possibility that masses are mislead. Hey, just a recent example. Here in UK, we had recently the Brexit vote, should UK leave the European Union? I can tell you, Danny, that you would not believe all the crap we had on TV! Experts following specialists explaining this and that, they knew, blablabla. It turns out that all they said is 100% ******** and we are now facing an economic disaster. People have been deceived by populists, experts, professionals, politicians, etc.

Why experts rarely agree? Put 5 experts on a TV debate, and you'll get 5 different figures and 5 different opinions. Should we rely their diplomas? You know perfectly that it's NOT a criterion. Some people cheat in order to get their degree, some people just had the money for getting it. And because you have a diploma means that day D at time T, you could answer some questions, nothing more. It doesn't give you experience, background. It doesn't prove that you are intelligent. At all. Being clever is something different. It's being able to sort things out, to infer, to invent, to create, etc. And yes, many geniuses had no diploma at all. We were talking about science, I might be wrong in one case or two, I'm writing from memory here, but if my memory serves well, Da Vinci, Franklin, Darwin, Edison, etc. had no science degree. It doesn't hurt to have one, but you can be successfull without one either. If you are clever.

If authorities and experts were perfect, we would never have scandals, corruption, plots, misery, injustice or inequality. I'd agree with you that, in most cases, surely a very high percentage, we can trust the State but, for the reasons exposed above, we need to stay attentive. And that's why we need people questioning things or people. But yes, clever people, not instagram or twitter specialists. I agree.
JasonEngland
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Quote:
On Oct 31, 2017, Cagliostro wrote:
Those who are satisfied with the investigation to date on his horrific shooting and the amount of information that has been forthcoming, I am happy for them. However, many people are not. This is not meant to besmirch the authorities or their handling the case but rather to voice question.

We are all uninformed because we are not directly involved in the investigation, are not in possession of the evidence nor qualified to voice anything other than opinion. However, to voice opinion is the right of every American citizen. Many people died to ensure that right. It keeps our appointed public servants on their toes.

To say that the information has been somewhat confusing and sparse is certainly fair and reasonable for us to ask. After all, we are not subjects of a despot nor do we have to kneel to a king. We are free citizens who are allowed to question and hold government accountable. That doesn't mean we don't support law enforcement nor do we look to hinder their investigation. What it does mean is we can question ALL political servants, every last one of them, rightly or wrongly at any time. PERIOD!

Hopefully the FBI has something to add to this situation when their report eventually comes out. It might prove to be quite interesting, then again maybe not. We'll see.

Finally, it is very important to note that I have just received my honorary CSI card and mail-order investigator diploma and am therefore qualified and authorized to make cutting edge and perceptive comments on this case from time to time.

So...stay tuned...possibly the best is yet to come. Smile



Cag,

I asked you what information you thought was lacking. You responded with this instead of clarifying. Was this directed at me and my post or at others here? If directed at me, why? I thought my post was fairly non-confrontational and fair.

I'll rephrase:

Imagine that LVMPD and the FBI will answer (truthfully and completely) 5 questions about this case. Assuming they know the answers of course. If they don't know, they'll answer, "We don't know."

What are the top 5 questions that you feel haven't been answered?

Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
Cagliostro
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Quote:
On Nov 1, 2017, JasonEngland wrote:

Cag,

I asked you what information you thought was lacking. You responded with this instead of clarifying. Was this directed at me and my post or at others here? If directed at me, why? I thought my post was fairly non-confrontational and fair.


My post was not directed at you and your questions were fair and reasonable. I certainly have nothing against you personally except perhaps that you are a magician and I dislike everyone on general principles. But aside from that, the answer is no. Smile

I have no inside information or contacts on this case, all I "know" is what the news media and the sheriff have conveyed on TV.

Until the facts of the case are out, most of us are posting in the dark and lack sufficient information and substantive evidence to come to any definitive conclusions. However, there are some observations that can be made that I found to be irritating to me and I believe the authorities appear to not be very forthcoming with information. Maybe that is normal, maybe not. (Jason, you can extrapolate your questions from the following. I can't do all the work here.) Smile

I was concerned that the questioning of the bother and girlfriend was not very revealing. Little appeared to be said about that and I don't know how far the authorities went into those interviews because they did not elaborate. I would think that saying they both knew little or nothing of substance strains credulity. Those statements may be true and then again maybe not. The fact that it is part of an ongoing investigation and they can't divulge further information is okay but to simply say they knew nothing strains credibility. There was evidently a second girlfriend that he stayed with at the resort, there was no information regarding her and I think a more complete statement could have been made regarding that. Once again, little clarification.

The two houses he owned were searched and were not condoned off and secured. They were subsequently vandalized to a certain degree during the investigation. That irritated me because if that is so, it seems sloppy on the part of the police. I would think the houses would be secured until after the investigation but as a layman I don't know that for a fact. But to find out they were vandalized from the news media is disconcerting. I would have kept the houses secured even if nothing was there. It just seems like something like that should be done but of course I am not an investigator and don't know the intimate details.

The timeline was changed three times. Maybe that is normal in investigations but maybe the divulging of information could have been handled better. It tends to question the competence of the authorities.

How about the toxicology reports on the shooter? Was there anything in his system that could account for his insane actions, or was he just simply insane...period...end of story, and if so, according to whom. Who was the doctor that issued prescriptions for the shooters medication, if any? If so, does the doctor have any input on the shooters frame of mind?

In the greatest mass shooting in US history. The one and only prime witness to the shooting left the country and traveled to Mexico, after being shot in the leg by the shooter and was there for 2 or 3 days. I don't know if that would be normal operating procedure but what if his testimony was need further and he refused to come back?

He was not allowed to be interviewed by anyone and cancelled the five interviews he had scheduled. MGM evidently sequestered him which I can understand as he is still their employee. The only interview he could have was with Ellen DeGeneres and that was obviously a staged interview controlled by MGM. She built him up and asked "puff" questions.

Of course, I was affected somewhat by Steve Wynn's excellent TV interview by Chris Wallace which was quite revealing. Wynn went into some detail as to the precautions he started two years ago at his hotels, at a cost of millions of dollars, to protect his guests and his corporation against these type attacks. The training of his entire staff (that means everyone), as to what to be alert for and what to do if certain red flags come up was enlightening. Not allowing a guest to prevent access to his room for more than 24 hours is something they would investigate if only to see if the guest was okay. The screening of luggage going to the rooms. Security cameras in the hallway and many other precautions that were not evasive to the guests but worthwhile procedures, none of which where implemented by Mandalay Bay.

Keep in mind the shooter was in his rooms evidently for three days and no one was allowed in, not even housekeeping. Duh...

Not securing the concert site better - these people were totally unprotected and with all the terror attacks in the US and world, no precautions seem to have been taken. It seems like one could have driven three tractor trailers to mow down the concert crowd. This leads me to conclude that MGM Corp. is very worried about their liability, and well they should be.

My main concern is, are the authorities being extra careful and not releasing very much information purposely to help protect MGM - a very powerful and influential force in Las Vegas. Keep in mind, the sheriff is an elected official. I am not besmirching the sheriff, but he could be under tremendous pressure.

Of course, I could be 100% wrong about all of this. Maybe I have just been around too long and seen too much...the shenanigans of elected official, the corruption in our nation's capital, the pay for play games of politicians and officials at all levels, and on and on. Maybe it is just that the the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department's public relations is not very good. I don't know...but I wonder...who does?

However, when the reports are finally released perhaps all my concerns will be laid to rest and I will be just be another silly guy with an over-active imagination.

Then again...
tommy
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People in hotels often put a “Do not disturb sign” on their door and for a reasonably amount of time it would cause no suspicion but it would if it went on for some time because, as Cag said the man might have has a heart attack or something. I think Cag has a point but not a good one and when making an argument it is best to make good points only: strong points, as opposed to weak ones.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Cagliostro
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I do think that checking on rooms in which the guest has not allowed housekeeping or anyone else entry to clean or at least check after 24 hours might have made a difference in the LV shooting. We don't know nor does anyone else. However, I would think it would have been almost impossible for the shooter to accumulate and hide the large stash of weapons and ammo he had in his room for 5 days if that were the case.

However, tommy is right. There is no one security measure that will prevent a mass shooting like this and this one measure, as a stand-alone measure, by itself is weak. It would seem to me that a compilation of a number of measures in concert, i.e., continual non-evasive luggage checking, hallway cameras, trained housekeeping personnel, checking on guest well-being and their rooms after 24 hours, and other precautions could certainly make it more difficult to accomplish a shooting like this. But in a free society, you cannot put enough restrictions on people to completely stop this from occurring or you would no longer have a free society.

When the reports come out eventually, and the amount of information is very sparse on this shooting, that should give a clearer picture of exactly what happened and perhaps some more intelligent measures will be put in place.

But stopping something like this - almost impossible to do. Reducing the probabilities or the number of occurrences might be more feasible. Knives, cars, trucks, home-made bombs, guns... you name it. Where there is a will, there seems to be a way to accomplish these terrible killings.

Interesting aside. My daughter and granddaughter went trick or treating on Halloween in one of the most exclusive and well protected communities on Red Rock Canyon in Vegas. This is a gated community with armed and trained security guards, clearly identified with badges and uniforms. They all had guns. The security was not composed of retirees or part timers, they were full-time trained pros.

One had to park outside the gates of the community and there were complimentary golf cards with drivers to take invitees to the guest homes they were visiting. One could walk around inside the community in safety as the guards were present to ensure that safe experience. Seems like many of the elite and very wealthy in Vegas (and elsewhere) know how to protect themselves and take the necessary steps to do so. It is very sad these type precautions have to be taken, but it seems like that is the new world we live in.
Mr. Bones
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On Nov 3, 2017, Cagliostro wrote:
It is very sad these type precautions have to be taken, but it seems like that is the new world we live in.


It's not any kind of "new" world that I live in.
I, (like most people) live in a regular house in a normal neighborhood, without armed guards, without gates, and where I spend a great deal of my time relaxed, and not worrying about being shot or assaulted.

International and domestic terrorism only works if people "change" how they would otherwise live their lives. That's what terrorism is all about.

I choose to enjoy my life, and remain unbowed on all fronts to any form of terrorism.
If my time were to come as a result of something like happened in Las Vegas, I'd die happy that I had chosen to live my life as if terrorists were no more important than an amoeba in a petri dish.

YMMV, and I would imagine for lots of folks, that mileage does indeed vary widely.
Mr. Bones
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Dannydoyle
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On Nov 3, 2017, Mr. Bones wrote:
Quote:
On Nov 3, 2017, Cagliostro wrote:
It is very sad these type precautions have to be taken, but it seems like that is the new world we live in.


It's not any kind of "new" world that I live in.
I, (like most people) live in a regular house in a normal neighborhood, without armed guards, without gates, and where I spend a great deal of my time relaxed, and not worrying about being shot or assaulted.

International and domestic terrorism only works if people "change" how they would otherwise live their lives. That's what terrorism is all about.

I choose to enjoy my life, and remain unbowed on all fronts to any form of terrorism.
If my time were to come as a result of something like happened in Las Vegas, I'd die happy that I had chosen to live my life as if terrorists were no more important than an amoeba in a petri dish.

YMMV, and I would imagine for lots of folks, that mileage does indeed vary widely.


This is the way I look at it.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Cagliostro
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On Nov 3, 2017, Mr. Bones wrote:

It's not any kind of "new" world that I live in.

I, (like most people) live in a regular house in a normal neighborhood, without armed guards, without gates, and where I spend a great deal of my time relaxed, and not worrying about being shot or assaulted.


I agree Bones. I live the same way as you and have no reasons to change. However, my post above refers to a community with extremely wealthy people and those with high profile public images. I would think they would be more concerned with kidnappings for ransom and robberies rather than terrorist attacks. Evidently they choose to take the extra precautions. I don't know, maybe for them it is the wise thing to do.
tommy
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What I don’t understand is how, in this information age, a man can buy this amount guns and ammo and these sort of powrful guns, without the cops being notified and investigating it.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Mr. Bones
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An interview with the Sheriff today seems to lead to two previously unexplored (at least in detail) avenues.

First is that he had apparently lost a lot of his wealth in the year or two previous to his horrendous attack.
The Sheriff isn't saying how much money he lost (or if he lost it all, or close to all) - but I can see an already unhinged guy who fancied himself a professional gambler going ballistic if he lost a substantial portion of his bankroll.

Second bit of information I hadn't heard before, and in many ways speaks volumes more than the note above about possibly losing a sizable portion of his nut. And that second bit of info from the Sheriff was that he had suffered from repeated bouts of depression. The Sheriff doesn't say it in the interview, but one presumes the reason the authorities know about the depression is because of his medication record in dealing with that depression.

So you start to get a picture of an egocentric, depressed, medicated, gun obsessed gambler who may (or may not) have lost a sizable portion of his nut.
I could see the above as the start down a road that ultimately completely warped his mind, such that he might consider unleashing some sort of horror upon Las Vegas.

Ultimately though, I think it's difficult (if not impossible) for sane people to even begin to understand how even a situation like the above could lead to mass murder.
Mr. Bones
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tommy
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Yes, his drug taking and depression and gambling losses have already been widely reported. Some places said he was losing half a million a year on the poker machines - which ought to be banned and in fact, all legal gambling ought to be banned because it causes nothing but misery.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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