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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » The Second Amendment (1 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

George Ledo
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I've thrown this one on the table several times in various places and have been intrigued by the variety of responses, so here goes...

The Second Amendment reads: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Now, going STRICTLY by the wording and the syntax, and from years of diagramming sentences in grammar and high school (do kids even have to do that anymore?), I read that sentence as saying that "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed because it is necessary to have a well-regulated militia in order to maintain the security of a free state."

IOW, as I read it, the right of the people to keep and bear arms is necessary because they are the ones who would form a well-regulated militia to maintain security.

Now, for you grammar mavens, and going STRICTLY by the wording of the Second Amendment (not by "shoulds" or precedents or politics), what do you see the Amendment saying?
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Dannydoyle
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This has been parsed to death.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
George Ledo
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I guess I missed it. Smile
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Jonathan Townsend
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Seriously? There was a lot of horse trading and compromise happening in that constitutional convention before the document could get signed... and those first ten amendments were part of the deal. But if you really need to parse - try this:

Quote:
On Oct 4, 2017, George Ledo wrote:
... to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."...


Hint, hint, it's okay for the slaves to take up arms... so they can secure their freedom the way we did a few years ago... hint, hint.

some people just take a while longer to read between the lies Smile
...to all the coins I've dropped here
funsway
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One critical point is that this Amendment doe snot grant any right at all - there is no "2nd Amendment Right."

But, my "reading between the lines" is that the right to bear arms is a given, along with the right of be safe in one's home and property - you know, that "pursuit of happiness" thing.

Also, that "government" has some right to limit the use of weapons except at restricted by this Amendment. Folks have looked for ways to expand the basic interpretation
as a very "liberal" position while somehow claiming to be "conservative" in support of Constitutional Rights (stated or assumed).

Thus, if I suggest that might have a Constitutional Right to feel safe on the street that is lessened by folks carrying guns around, I am taking a conservative position -
while those wanting a gun in every pocket are taking a very liberal position of the right to bear arms for personal protection in the home (or form a militia).

Yes, I have guns in my home and might use them to protect my home and person. That right does not come from the 2nd Amendment.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

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LobowolfXXX
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The Comstitution doesn't grant rights. It recognizes them. Or purports to, anyway.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

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tommy
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All laws, no matter clearly you might think they are written and what they mean is are open to interpretation. When you claim you are going STRICTLY by the wording and the syntax, what you are doing is interpreting it and what think it means really does not matter. It is really a matter of law and it is judges in courts of law have the power, not you, to make of it what they will. Strange at it may the judges can if they wish deliberately misinterpret a law they do not like. They act and while you watch and work out what they have done, they act again and then you are left working that one out. You say “I've thrown this one on the table several times in various places.” What places exactly and who was at these tables and there anybody there that had any power? Do you think that we the people say in matters of law?
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Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On Oct 4, 2017, LobowolfXXX wrote:
The Comstitution doesn't grant rights. It recognizes them. Or purports to, anyway.


It establishes the federal government. It expressly limits they extent to which the federal government will impose upon states to govern themselves. what's not expressly imposed by either federal or state law (is presumed to be) private rights to life, liberty and ...

Much careful wording approved after much research into law and years of negotiating.
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tommy
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No, it is just a bit of dirty paper, which lies there doing nothing all day.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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Tim Snyder
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A well regulated congress, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and read books, shall not be infringed. Would only people running for congress be allowed to keep books?
landmark
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funsway
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Quote:
On Oct 4, 2017, Tim Snyder wrote:
A well regulated congress, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and read books, shall not be infringed. Would only people running for congress be allowed to keep books?


an interesting analogy that prompts some musing. It presumes that people running for congress can read and use the information in a meaningful way, but ...

Could people pile books in the road an block access to my driveway? Could people hide a dictionary in their shirt and pretend to be educated?
If a child stands on a book to reach the cookie jar, falls off and huts himself, who is liable? Is a set of encyclopedia a "book" or "books?"
Is a comic book reading, or something else?

Back to "arms" -- both a portable drill and a pistol have the same purpose, to put a hole in something. New technology makes the number of holes made between charges (reloading) very large
when compared with decades ago. Why isn't this regulated? Everyone has the right to drill a couple of hole around the house, and if you hit a pipe or wire it is your responsibility. But carrying a drill into a public building? Not so clear ...
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Dynamike
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I know what they should do to help decrease crimes with firearms.
rowdymagi5
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Signet
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The words well regulated militia. What that means to me is, there are rules which must be followed. Isn't this what sensible gun control would constitute? Should it not be easy to procure and possess such a dangerous tool?
tommy
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What is sensible gun control? The American people, most people, are great and heroic, humble and respectful, they are freedom loving, generous and helpful to those in need. They are well educated and hardworking. “We” are not monumentally mad! It varies and there are some in all places who are psychopaths and incidentally psychopaths tend rise to power and I am not kidding. Some people, a small number, are suicidal madmen and so on. While we should not tar everybody with the same brush, we can say that in the USA the nuts there unlike the nuts in England seem to have easy access powerful weapons. It is hard to tell a nut from a normal individual, until ha acts, at which point it is too late. Murderers are often appearing to be very pleasant people, the last person you would expect. The only real solution to stop nuts having easy access to guns is then to stop everybody from having guns. The good American people want guns to protect themselves, their freedom, and etcetera, so what you have is a dilemma. How can you have sensible gun control when you have people who appear sensible buying guns who are actually mad?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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S2000magician
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Quote:
On Oct 5, 2017, Dynamike wrote:
I know what they should do to help decrease crimes with firearms.

And you feel it best to keep it to yourself, evidently.
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Oct 6, 2017, S2000magician wrote:
Quote:
On Oct 5, 2017, Dynamike wrote:
I know what they should do to help decrease crimes with firearms.

And you feel it best to keep it to yourself, evidently.


Maybea blessing in disguise?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Slim King
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Quote:
On Oct 6, 2017, Signet wrote:
The words well regulated militia. What that means to me is, there are rules which must be followed. Isn't this what sensible gun control would constitute? Should it not be easy to procure and possess such a dangerous tool?

I think the word regulated means supplied .. IMHO
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funsway
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Quote:
On Oct 7, 2017, Slim King wrote:
Quote:
On Oct 6, 2017, Signet wrote:
The words well regulated militia. What that means to me is, there are rules which must be followed. Isn't this what sensible gun control would constitute? Should it not be easy to procure and possess such a dangerous tool?

I think the word regulated means supplied .. IMHO



methinks more akin to "regular" as opposed to "volunteer." This means pre-qualified and tested as well as having a set-aside amount of ammo (balls/wads,powder) or a sharpened sword or pole-arm. Recall than many who showed up for the Revolutionary army brought no weapons or supplies. The objective here is to have a prepared militia based on home owned weapons. The "regulated" part is inuring everything is in place, ready for a mobilization.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

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