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funsway
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Please do not expand this question into guessing what my feelings are about gun ownership or any thoughts not related to concealed carry specifically.

In the Texas church, with many killed and more injured and hundreds not, there must have been those with concealed carry. I know that many churches have designated and trained members
with concealed carry. Yet, there is no mention of any person in the congregation using their concealed carry for protection or to subdue the shooter. Instead, outside persons with no CC
pursued and possible shot the gunman. Maybe I missed that part of the news. Just wondering why concealed carry did not minimize the disaster.

Apparently, the shooter did not conceal the weapon, purchased it even though he had a barring criminal record and seems to not having been deterred from his mission (?) because of the
fear that some in the congregation might be armed, concealed or otherwise. I am just confused by the concealed carry justification arguments/evidence.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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NYCTwister
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I think that particular church didn't allow them.

I don't buy the good guys with guns thing, but in this case I think it might have lessened the damage.
Another pastor, who does allow them, has said that the guy would have been stopped almost immediately if it had been his church. In this case it's hard not to agree.

One thing is sure, is that the hero, and that's what he was, didn't use an assault weapon to stop the guy.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
Dick Oslund
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Well, twister, I DO buy the good guys with guns thing..."

I'm a Navy veteran (long after the days of muzzle loaders, and black gunpowder!) I'm also a 72 year veteran of the Boy Scouts of America. The Boy Scout Motto, is, BE PREPARED!

I "back" our "blue", but, they cannot be everywhere.

Those "good guys", with proper training, have become NECESSARY, in our current culture.
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Dick Oslund
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P.S.
It's easy to form opinions, such as yours, when you've never been involved in a situation like the recent church tragedy in Texas.

I sincerely believe however, that, if YOU are ever in a such a situation, AND, YOU ARE A SURVIVOR, or are only wounded, YOU WILL CHANGE YOUR OPINION!
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
NYCTwister
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Quote:
On Nov 7, 2017, Dick Oslund wrote:
Well, twister, I DO buy the good guys with guns thing..."

I'm a Navy veteran (long after the days of muzzle loaders, and black gunpowder!) I'm also a 72 year veteran of the Boy Scouts of America. The Boy Scout Motto, is, BE PREPARED!

I "back" our "blue", but, they cannot be everywhere.

Those "good guys", with proper training, have become NECESSARY, in our current culture.


Grand Master Oslund, I agree that, in our current culture, citizens with proper training can make a difference; and I also back our blue.

Everyone is quick to call for heads when there is a police shooting; but no one speaks to the fact that these officers go out into an environment where they SHOULD expect the worst. I couldn't do it.

But, is the training that a person has to go through to buy a gun adequate? What about assault weapons?
When a person tries to buy one, how much training is required?

I couldn't find anything.

I also believe in being prepared. It's kind of a requirement living in NYC.

But how can I prepare for insanity?

I lived through the NYC of the eighties, when there were over 2k murders a year and every trip on the subway was an adventure.
Luck and common sense got me through those times; but one thing I never thought about was that someone would pull out a machine gun and go crazy.

Since I don't know your thoughts about this subject, I ask you -

Should assault weapons be banned again?

Do they fall under the spirit of the 2nd amendment?

Would we be safer if they were banned again?

I know you are one of the busiest 230 year old people on the planet; but if you have the time I'd be curious to hear your thoughts.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
Dannydoyle
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Every establishment has the right to not show firearms into their place.

While I will not engage in alternative realities of "if this then that", it is true nobody needed an assault rifle to stop him. Not sure why it matters either way but it is true.

Did an assault weapon ban help? Did it hurt when it laosed?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
NYCTwister
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Quote:
On Nov 7, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
Every establishment has the right to not show firearms into their place.

While I will not engage in alternative realities of "if this then that", it is true nobody needed an assault rifle to stop him. Not sure why it matters either way but it is true.

Did an assault weapon ban help? Did it hurt when it laosed?


Simple question - are we better off with these things in circulation, or not?
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
Dannydoyle
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Better in what way?

But if the answer is no, what do you propose to do about it? You can stop manufacturing them tomorrow and it would not stop a single death. Do you want to go into houses and confiscate them? What is the plan exactly? What good will punishing 99.99% of law abidingcitizens who own these weapons do? How many deaths will it prevent?

So are we better off that our government is not allowed to just decide they do not like something so they take it away? Yes we are. As a matter of fact that is one of my favorite featuresof this country.

Get past the emotion and horror. It is a far bigger question than you are making it. It is a wonderfuldebate tactic to do things like that but that is all.

Also let me ask you the same question. Are we better off with heroine and drugs?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
tommy
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If 99.99% are law abiding citizens then why are 10% in jail?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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gallagher
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First, I must say,
I believe 'the Government' should BE the people.
At the very least: Represent 'the people'.
AND protect them.

Let's look at some facts,
not simple 'hypotha-scaries'.

In 1996, with 26 'weapon related' homicides per year:
Scotland banned guns.
Scotland.
Overnight, about 200,000 owners of handguns, most of whom kept them for pistol shooting,
found their weapon banned and their pastime wiped out.
All small-bore pistols and rifles used by target shooters were included in the ban.
Penalties for anyone in possession of an illegal firearm were tough - from heavy fines to prison terms of 10 years.

1997: five deaths.
2014: one.

1997: Armed crime ROSE,
from 18,000 to over 24,000 assaults.
Then, year for year declined.
2014: 4,000 assaults.
(source: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016......control)

Brass knuckles are controlled.
Nunchucks,..controlled.
Switchblades,...in some states contolled.
Assault Rifles?

gallagher

p.s.: Dick, I believe the 'Boy Scout method' is something more sutle.
I believe, 'the Boy Scouts' prepare folks better(!).
They are given,..taught,..experience: 'values'.
The root of the problems today,
with Guns,....Herione,...'Glorification of Money',..
we are no longer teaching,...living(?),
these values.
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Nov 7, 2017, gallagher wrote:
First, I must say,
I believe 'the Government' should BE the people.
At the very least: Represent 'the people'.
AND protect them.

Let's look at some facts,
not simple 'hypotha-scaries'.

In 1996, with 26 'weapon related' homicides per year:
Scotland banned guns.
Scotland.
Overnight, about 200,000 owners of handguns, most of whom kept them for pistol shooting,
found their weapon banned and their pastime wiped out.
All small-bore pistols and rifles used by target shooters were included in the ban.
Penalties for anyone in possession of an illegal firearm were tough - from heavy fines to prison terms of 10 years.

1997: five deaths.
2014: one.

1997: Armed crime ROSE,
from 18,000 to over 24,000 assaults.
Then, year for year declined.
2014: 4,000 assaults.
(source: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016......control)

Brass knuckles are controlled.
Nunchucks,..controlled.
Switchblades,...in some states contolled.
Assault Rifles?

gallagher

p.s.: Dick, I believe the 'Boy Scout method' is something more sutle.
I believe, 'the Boy Scouts' prepare folks better(!).
They are given,..taught,..experience: 'values'.
The root of the problems today,
with Guns,....Herione,...'Glorification of Money',..
we are no longer teaching,...living(?),
these values.


Scotland is not America.

Assault rifle are controlled.

Do you believe banning them would have stopped the crimes?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
NYCTwister
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Tomorrow? Probably not since there are still so many out there, but eventually they would be less likely. If they're Illegal there would be no financial incentive to make them, so the numbers would decline as those that exist are located, and removed from circulation.

And let's not fool ourselves into thinking the government can't/won't take things away from us. They have, and they will whenever it suits their owners interest to do so.

One thing is sure, and that is that something has to be done. So what do you suggest?
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
Dannydoyle
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Yes being outlawed has certainly stopped the flow of drugs and it worked like a charm during prohibition. Since when has being illegal taken the financial incentive out of crime?

What do you propose to do with the firearms in circulation? How will you disarm otherwise law abiding citizens and why?

And in reality more deaths result from handguns than spree killers so why not take them as well? After all they are the real problem aren't they?

And why is it certain something has to be done? Some of the worst things in our history have happened with that very poor excuse.

I suggest there are plenty of laws against murder. We don't lack things being done. I think going at the problem as a social issue is the first solution.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
NYCTwister
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Fine, so how do we go about it as a social issue?
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
Dannydoyle
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It seems to be beyond the scope of what Ken started the thread about.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
funsway
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Yes, I was hoping for thoughts about concealed carry.

from these comments one might conclude that concealed carry has no justification - no one actually pulls a gun in self-defense and no crazy person is deferred by the knowledge some may be packing.

Maybe everyone should be required to own an assault weapon but only the government can sell bullets. We wouldn't need income tax any more.
Folks who didn't wan to buy bullets could just pretend they had a gun - you know, concealed carry.
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TomB
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Funsway, since a car is considered concealed, you need a permit to have your loaded gun on your hip. Also, you need a conceal to carry at certain places like schools, even though you wear the gun openly.
funsway
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Quote:
On Aug 6, 2019, TomB wrote:
Funsway, since a car is considered concealed, you need a permit to have your loaded gun on your hip. Also, you need a conceal to carry at certain places like schools, even though you wear the gun openly.


and in NJ you need to have a justified reason to get a concealed carry permit. What's wrong with that?

I have also receive PMs that say that in some States you can only use concealed carry for self-defense, NOT for any crime against others.

So, I am back to the original pondering. If you can't actually use the concealed gun to stop a crime, why carry it at all.
If a crook approaches you KNOWING you have one (visible or brag) then how is it deterring crime?

Lots of posts, No real answers.

Now we have new shootings this some claiming that if every person had been armed it would not have happened.
Yet, I find no report where any conceal carry person actually shot at the gunman. One soldier helped kids escape. Don;t need a gun for that.
Same with previous shootings. So, I am still waiting for evidence (not opinions) that either concealed or open actually deters any action.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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Chessmann
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Quote:
On Aug 6, 2019, funsway wrote:

I have also receive PMs that say that in some States you can only use concealed carry for self-defense, NOT for any crime against others.

So, I am back to the original pondering. If you can't actually use the concealed gun to stop a crime, why carry it at all.


You answered your own question: to stop a crime against yourself. Your family. Honestly, I don't know of many states who won't let you use your CC to stop a crime where someone's life is in imminent danger.

Quote:

If a crook approaches you KNOWING you have one (visible or brag) then how is it deterring crime?



Not sure I understand your question. It can deter because he knows you have the ability to return fire, so he chooses to move on.

Quote:

Now we have new shootings this some claiming that if every person had been armed it would not have happened.
Yet, I find no report where any conceal carry person actually shot at the gunman.




Clearly, everyone was not armed Smile There are many variables that could have played a factor. There aren't a large number of CC'ers compared to the general population. One of the Walmart survivors had a relative who could carry, and lamented that the relative chose not to carry that day. Another man interviewed there drew his gun and helped others escape, but did not encounter the shooter during this. If he had, he had the ability to return fire.

Some (not all) mass shootings occurred in gun free zones, where the shooter could be somewhat assured of little to no initial resistance.

Aside from that, there are MANY, MANY instances of CC'ers stopping attacks. If you are looking for justification for carrying, aside from simple deterrence, for the purpose of stopping crimes and saving lives, there it is. See below for deterring the attempt of committing a criminal act.

Quote:

Same with previous shootings.


The church shooter in Texas was stopped by a man who lived nearby left his home and prevented the gunman from getting to a second church, as was his plan - he was forcibly deterred. He was a CC'er, but not in the church at the time. Apparently, no one was carrying at the church.

Quote:

So, I am still waiting for evidence (not opinions) that either concealed or open actually deters any action.



If having a concealed weapon doesn't deter a crime, but ends up stopping it, that is a good thing.

We simply don't know how many people thought of committing a crime, but were deterred by the knowledge that there might be a CC'er(s) who would resist. We do know that there is little to no deterrence offered in gun free zones.

OTOH, there is MUCH evidence of CC'ers deterring crimes while being committed, or *immediately prior to* being committed.

If you want to know how many criminals/shooters decided not to even attempt a crime for fear of CC'ers, hard to say, as those crimes weren't committed and the people didn't come forward with their testimony of how they were deterred.

***Crazy people who want to do crazy things and who have no interest in living through their assault aren't likely to be deterred from the attempt by *anything*, whether they are a mass shooter or going after 1 person. The only thing left are police & CC'ers (or brave unarmed civilians willing to risk life to intervene) who can bring things to a stop.

Michael Corleone deterred a second attempt on his father's life by appearing armed and ready!
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landmark
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We are now in the interesting position where it may soon become harder to obtain a video game depicting gun violence than obtaining the gun itself.
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