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Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On Aug 6, 2019, funsway wrote:
... for evidence (not opinions) that either concealed or open actually deters any action.
Are you asking how to test a claim of effective deterrence?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Dannydoyle
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First of all landmark nonsense. Second of all the REAL sticking point is the Constitution.

Just tell me how many OTHER rights you are happy to give up because you are scared. That is my main question. How many rights will you give up so easily? How about the 1st? Want to give up free speech because it is easy to recruit nut jobs online? Want to give the government an easier time prosecuting the drug cartels so the 4th matters little and the 6th can go out the window?

I make NO argument about a "good guy with a gun" or any such thing. I make no argument about a CC permit being a deterrent of ANY kind. I just want to know what you want to give up out of fear? Because that is ALL this is. Fear. Legislating out of fear is a VERY bad idea. (See the Patriot Act.)

The 10th has already gone the way of the T-Rex. May as well shred the rest of it as well huh?

Seems pretty important for some who want to ban guns to have abortions on demand. What if we trade off? No that won't happen because of the Constitution. Fantastic. The document has some use doesn't it? BUT if you want to hide behind it to have the rights you demand, you have to live with it for others to do the same. Especially since it is enshrined SO prominently in the top 10 list. States can regulate firearms however they see fit. Go live in Chicago and feel safe.

There IS a process to amend the Constitution. Go ahead and do so. I'm all for that.

And asking to prove a person "didn't do something" is a ridiculous standard. If that is your level of proof then it is purely agenda driven. How would ANYONE know (On EITHER SIDE mind you.) what some nut decided NOT to do because of whatever. It calls for the operation of another's mind and is a ridiculous question in the first place.

The problem is that NONE of this wrangling will stop the next shooter. Not even close. He ALREADY HAS his firearm! So what do we do to prevent these things?

I mean even IF you try an outright ban on firearms how do you think that is going to look? What does this look like across the country anyhow? Confiscation? How will that go? It will look like armed thugs taking over! It will cause the party who tries it to LOSE POWER permanently. It would be an absolute nightmare. Not to mention just as dangerous as can be. Make the sale of new ones against the law? OK that seems to have worked for drugs hasn't it? Worked wonders for prohibition didn't it? Silly.

The problem is that mass shootings only are about 2% of the problem! But it is those that get all the headlines. We lose young people every day to firearm violence, and suicide with firearm. (One can argue easily that a suicidal person will kill themselves SOMEHOW, but the firearm is easier. So may not be fair to count those.) But firearm culture in certain parts of the cities is just outrageous.

What causes one to devalue their OWN lives so much that by extension others lives mean nothing? Find the Rosetta stone to THAT and you will go a long way to getting firearm violence down. As a matter of fact ALL violence will be down.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Jonathan Townsend
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Theory: better safe than sorry.
Quote:
Overall, the empirical evidence points toward non-legal factors, such as marriage, employment, peers, morality, disapproval from loved ones, ostracism, and shame, having a more significant impact on conformity than do sanction threats
https://www.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/80_3_4_0.pdf
Fine for controlled conditions. But in real life game theory meets eminent domain. So far eminent domain wins. The ideal of within group non-violence does not seem to scale up to larger groups such as states, nations, or across species.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
funsway
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Quote:
On Aug 6, 2019, Chessmann wrote:

Aside from that, there are MANY, MANY instances of CC'ers stopping attacks. If you are looking for justification for carrying, aside from simple deterrence, for the purpose of stopping crimes and saving lives, there it is. See below for deterring the attempt of committing a criminal act.

The church shooter in Texas was stopped by a man who lived nearby left his home and prevented the gunman from getting to a second church, as was his plan - he was forcibly deterred. He was a CC'er, but not in the church at the time. Apparently, no one was carrying at the church.


OTOH, there is MUCH evidence of CC'ers deterring crimes while being committed, or *immediately prior to* being committed.


You claim MANY/MANY by offer one example where man used an non-concealed weapon carried from his home to stop someone. Later you say 'much evidence" but I don't find any. Maybe I am not searching in the right places. Where are these sources you refer to? Again, I am not disagreeing with you conclusions or inters, just looking for FACTS.

I find "We simply don't know how many people thought of committing a crime, but were deterred by the knowledge that there might be a CC'er(s) who would resist." interesting.
I carry an old coin of my dad's. I have never been shot on the street. Guess his lucky coin is working.

Surly there is some crook who has come out and said, "I thought of robbing that bar but was afraid someone in there might have a gun." I don't find such testimony.
I do remember someone saying, "I avoid bars where guys have rifles in the windows of their pickups." Visible worked there.

Thanks for the post, but I don't see where it supports any idea the CC deters more than visible carry. I do know that at some of the shootings in recent years that folks later said they where CC but did nothing. So, why would a person planning a crime be deterred by the possibility that someone is CC and WiILLING to act?
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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landmark
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Danny wrote
Quote:

First of all landmark, nonsense...


Sorry for the brief nature of the following, as I need to get going. But quickly:

1) I wasn't offering an opinion--just noting where we are now, a few years after the posting of the OP.

2) Actually, I agree with about 90% or more of Danny's excellent post--the Constitution is the sticking point, and we give up rights at our peril. I think, however, Constitutional rights, even free speech, do have some wiggle room for regulation--especially when it comes to life and limb--but we always need to be vigilant about those fundamental rights.

3) Re concealed or open carry being a deterrent: It doesn't appear to be so, one way or the other according to this wiki article. One thing I found from it which was really interesting, which I didn't know before, was that fifty years ago dozens of more states had much more restrictive policies, including Texas and much of the midwest. Now, only four states have restrictive policies. I think it would be hard to argue that things have gotten better in those fifty years. It seems pretty clear that that is not the answer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_......d_States (and see the map)

4) And yet a restricted city like NYC seems to have the lowest crime rate of any major big city in America. That seems to suggest that there are tactics of law enforcement, policing and social policy that have some effect--at least in NYC. I don't offer NYC's experience as the answer for all, just noting that different solutions work in different places.

5) Back to #1. I brought up violent video games as an example of how I think we are always looking in the wrong direction for answers. Clamping down on video games will do nothing, as it is a far more a symptom than a cause of a violent society. Whenever people point to countries with a low number of gun deaths, the reply is always, "Well, the US is not (Japan, Sweden, Germany, Great Britain, France...etc.) the history is different." And that's true. But it behooves us to really understand why and where the history is different. What is unique about the US relationship to violence?
landmark
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Quote:
The ideal of within group non-violence does not seem to scale up to larger groups such as states, nations, or across species.


An intriguing notion, but it obscures the relative differences in success in tamping down violence among the different larger groups. Some are more equal than others...
Dannydoyle
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What is unique about American relationship to violence? We have part of our nations political systems willingness to use it as a tool to get power.

They don't want to offer solutions, they want to push an agenda.

Oh wait, forget the word "part" in the above sentence.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Bill Hegbli
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Parents have to be held accountable for not teaching their children between right and wrong. That there will be punishment for their wrong actions.

They have to be taught respect all others and what they have obtained in life is not theirs for the taking.

Parents that do not teach their children basic human laws and rules, should be punished severely along with the child, even after age 21.

Parents that give no love and attention are bring up murders and thieves. Because the child needs to find love and attention from someone, and that person uses them in wrong ways.
Vietnam Veteran 1967, Sgt. E-5

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Jonathan Townsend
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Please consider the possibility that "they should" is a symptom of the problem.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
funsway
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A collateral problem is the notion that minor children have Constitutional Rights similar to that of citizens. That is an interpretation, not a guarantee.
Similarly, kids should not get to choose what courses to study in school unless they earn electives. (or what to eat for lunch)
Same as giving trophies for attendance or passing on students who fail.

Almost every problem in out culture can be traced to the shirking of accountability in favor of finding someone to blame.

as an extreme example to keep on theme, perhaps a student who defaults on a school loan should not be able to own a gun. No responsibility or integrity or good judgment.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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Dannydoyle
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So children do not have constitutional rights?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
funsway
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Don't project or bait, Danny. I am sure you understand exactly what I meant. I never said that children do not have Constitutional rights.
Read the comments of the signers of the Constitution on this issue, then review the various interpretations at the Federal and State levels since 1800,
study the ways that various States restrict the rights of minors vs articles on the general view of minors as to their rights, especially in schools.
Then get back to me ...
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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lunatik
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Quote:
On Aug 6, 2019, landmark wrote:
We are now in the interesting position where it may soon become harder to obtain a video game depicting gun violence than obtaining the gun itself.


I haven't heard of any legislation, what’s being proposed?

Side note, I think what is consistently violence depicted on tv and the internet very well may have desensitized people to it.
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Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Aug 8, 2019, funsway wrote:
Don't project or bait, Danny. I am sure you understand exactly what I meant. I never said that children do not have Constitutional rights.
Read the comments of the signers of the Constitution on this issue, then review the various interpretations at the Federal and State levels since 1800,
study the ways that various States restrict the rights of minors vs articles on the general view of minors as to their rights, especially in schools.
Then get back to me ...


So now asking a question of clarification is projecting and baiting?

I have read and understand far more of constitutional law than you imagine.

Don't be so sensitive. Just an answer is all that was needed. YOU are the one projecting ironically enough.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Bill Hegbli
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They should re-enact the Military draft, that will solve most of youths mistakes during their upbringing, and hopefully make responsible citizens out of them.
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magicfish
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Quote:
On Aug 8, 2019, Bill Hegbli wrote:
They should re-enact the Military draft, that will solve most of youths mistakes during their upbringing, and hopefully make responsible citizens out of them.

Agreed
Animated Puppets
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Quote:
On Aug 8, 2019, Bill Hegbli wrote:
They should re-enact the Military draft, that will solve most of youths mistakes during their upbringing, and hopefully make responsible citizens out of them.



We currently have an all volunteer military that is sufficient; so using the Draft as a social tool is a bit too dystopian for my taste...
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Dannydoyle
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Taking children and putting them in the complete care and control of the government. Can't see this going over well with everyone. Spain I believe has mandatory service. I can be wrong. Probably am.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
landmark
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Quote:
On Aug 8, 2019, Bill Hegbli wrote:
They should re-enact the Military draft, that will solve most of youths mistakes during their upbringing, and hopefully make responsible citizens out of them.


I can't even begin to parse this. The solution to gun violence is to teach more people how to kill? NO. The military mentality is a huge part of the problem, not the solution.

FWIW, many mass shooters have had military backgrounds:
https://www.mintpressnews.com/mass-shoot....../234484/

Try again.
Animated Puppets
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For the record, I'm fine with mandatory service (within certain stipulations) as a way to provide training and create a 3rd level echelon militia. Sort of inactive reserves if you will, but a draft is too big of a tool to use the citizenry as a political war tool. Not everybody can be a fortunate son...

Korea also has mandatory 2 year service.
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