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Dannydoyle
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I personally an sickened by the hypocrisy of some. After DEFENDING the worst offenders in history (Kennedy, Clinton and so forth.) suddenly they want to pretend they care what has happened to women? What a joke.

Just look up "bimbo eruption" to see how it was handled. Now suddenly women are important and victims need to be heard? Don't make me laugh. Sorry but you can't run at from that history and the excuses make you look dim.

As for anyone engaging in the behavior it needs to be dealt with. It is just that some have lost ALL credibility on the subject.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On Nov 14, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
I personally an sickened by the hypocrisy of some. After DEFENDING the worst offenders in history (Kennedy, Clinton and so forth.) ...


Oh my. Worst offenders in history? Really?
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
RNK
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Yes. Really. Anytime anyone sexually assaults someone in any way I would call them ALL "worst offenders in history". They ALL are scum in my eyes. No matter what side they are on.
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On Nov 14, 2017, RNK wrote:
Yes. Really. Anytime anyone sexually assaults someone in any way I would call them ALL "worst offenders in history". They ALL are scum in my eyes. No matter what side they are on.


Do we need convictions, or is an internet forum accusation sufficient?
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
stoneunhinged
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On Nov 14, 2017, NYCTwister wrote:
So what are the alleged victims to do?


Tell somebody, some human being, someone who has ears and a brain and perhaps even an idea of what to do and where to go and who might have the power to change things.

Twitter is easy, and easy is seldom just.
NYCTwister
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Quote:
On Nov 15, 2017, stoneunhinged wrote:
Quote:
On Nov 14, 2017, NYCTwister wrote:
So what are the alleged victims to do?


Tell somebody, some human being, someone who has ears and a brain and perhaps even an idea of what to do and where to go and who might have the power to change things.

Twitter is easy, and easy is seldom just.


Twitter is a form of communication, nothing more.

For some social media is the only form of communication they have where their voice we be heard, unfiltered and uncorrupted.

Hasn't that POS Roy Moore's behavior been known for decades? Didn't the girls go to someone with ears, a brain, and the ability to do something?
How'd that go at the time?

His successful law career, and his impending election victory in a cesspool of backward thinking willing slaves, we call one of the United States, seems like he was justly punished.

That's how it's gone in America. The guilty are rewarded, if they're rich or powerful enough; while the victims are shamed and vilified.

If the government can't be trusted, how can you say that they should trust government?

Did you hear about the 15 million paid to accusers, by the government, with our tax dollars, over the last ten to fifteen years?

Probably not. We're only told what the media is told to tell us - until now.

Now we have our own media.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Nov 14, 2017, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On Nov 14, 2017, RNK wrote:
Yes. Really. Anytime anyone sexually assaults someone in any way I would call them ALL "worst offenders in history". They ALL are scum in my eyes. No matter what side they are on.


Do we need convictions, or is an internet forum accusation sufficient?


Thank you for proving my point.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
RNK
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Quote:
On Nov 15, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On Nov 14, 2017, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On Nov 14, 2017, RNK wrote:
Yes. Really. Anytime anyone sexually assaults someone in any way I would call them ALL "worst offenders in history". They ALL are scum in my eyes. No matter what side they are on.


Do we need convictions, or is an internet forum accusation sufficient?


Thank you for proving my point.



LOL!!!!!
Magnus Eisengrim
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Danny. As for the point about rule of law, we are in complete agreement. (We've agreed on this for years Smile )

As for "worst offenders", I'm not sure what your point is. Or were you being deliberately ironic?
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Cliffg37
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Interesting conversation here, but far a field from what I started out to discuss. My question, which a few of you did address was, "is it right to take away someones livelihood based on an yet unproven accusation?"

Here is an interesting example that is absolutely the truth and based on little more than money and protection of money.

In my profession of teaching, there have been teachers who are inappropriate with students. I think it is much more rare that the public wants to believe, but yes, it does happen. Probably more common is a teacher accused of something based on telling inappropriate stories, or the frame up of a teacher by an unhappy failing student.

The union rules for this are clear. An accused teacher is removed from the classroom immediately pending an investigation. They are not fired, and they are not prosecuted. They are removed from the classroom. In a larger district they are assigned a desk somewhere at the district office where they may be doing paperwork, or they may be sitting there reading the newspaper. A smaller district sends them home.

An investigation is conducted. The teacher will be investigated... The student and the student's friends will be questioned etc.

After the investigation, if they believe the teacher did it, he will be fired and the case sent to the D.A. for what ever happens after that.
If they believe the student made it up, or it was not the truth... The teacher will return to work (full pay for the timeout of the classroom) and the student will be moved out of the district.

This system is fair. The district says, if you are guilty, we need the get you away from kids asap, but we will not ruin your career without proof.

None of that process is any fun for the teacher, but he is protected to some extent, and does not lose money or credential if found not guilty.
The sad truth is though, if found not guilty, he probably has to change schools anyway, as kids do talk.

btw, there is a morals clause in my contract. There are several misdemeanors that if I am convicted of, my credential will be void. The same is true for almost any felony. The key though, is the word "convicted."

An example: a 2nd grade teacher went to a bar. She drank too much, and climbed onto a table and began to dance. She took off her top as she danced. She was arrested for drunk and disorderly and indecent exposure. The bar was not near the school she taught at. Odds were none of her students' parents were there. She was fired for this misdemeanor. Her punishment from the law was paying a fine.
Magic is like Science,
Both are fun if you do it right!
S2000magician
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I once lost a teaching job because some students told the dean that I would never reply to their e-mails and that I never held office hours. Even when I pointed out that there were generally between six and twelve students who attended my office hours three days a week immediately before my classes (and on Fridays after my last class if anyone wanted to stay), I lost that portion of my livelihood.

Employers are generally free to do what they want to do, and there's generally no recourse. That may not be fair, but I'm not sure that there's any way to create a fair system. You pays your money and takes your chances.
landmark
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That may not be fair, but I'm not sure that there's any way to create a fair system.

A strong union can fight for contracts with due process clauses. Not an impossible task, though usually not an easy one.
Magnus Eisengrim
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Perfection is too high a goal. But can we do better? The answer is usually yes.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
NYCTwister
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The problems with strong unions is that they become corrupted in the same way as those they fight against.

It's just more us vs. them.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
Dannydoyle
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Many unions ste the most corrupt organizations around. Many become nothing more than useful political contributers.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
RNK
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I feel another problem with Unions is the incentive to work better and more efficient becomes obsolete. I just don't understand how a worker in a union does 1/4 the work of the other workers and is still able to get the same pay and raise of the better workers. Maybe someone can explain to me how that is fair?
Dannydoyle
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Everyone is eventually going to get a guaranteed wage don't you know? Regardless of skill set.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
lynnef
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On Nov 16, 2017, RNK wrote:
I feel another problem with Unions is the incentive to work better and more efficient becomes obsolete. I just don't understand how a worker in a union does 1/4 the work of the other workers and is still able to get the same pay and raise of the better workers. Maybe someone can explain to me how that is fair?


What's the beef? Only 11% of workers are even in a union (down from 20% in 1983). As far as fairness, I got the same wage as a single man as a widow with three children. Was that fair? Yeah, we had a corrupt union leader; but after 34 years in the post office, I'm glad that I have a decent health care plan, can survive with my pension added to my wife's teaching pension. Later, I took a non-union job at Target for $12 an hour to help supplement things... I was told day to day when to come in and how many hours to work...no rights at all. There was plenty of unfairness there as well; and quite a few of these non-union workers depended on these jobs for their life, unlike some of us elders or students. Is that fair? Lynn
Dannydoyle
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You had a family. How is that anyone's responsibility but yours? I chose not to have as many kids. Why is it "fair" to incorporate that in the equation? They know what causes pregnancy now and it turns out it is easy enough to avoid.

That is the problem with a word like fair. What you think is fair I may think is a lack of planning.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
RNK
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Quote:
On Nov 16, 2017, lynnef wrote:
Quote:
On Nov 16, 2017, RNK wrote:
I feel another problem with Unions is the incentive to work better and more efficient becomes obsolete. I just don't understand how a worker in a union does 1/4 the work of the other workers and is still able to get the same pay and raise of the better workers. Maybe someone can explain to me how that is fair?


What's the beef? Only 11% of workers are even in a union (down from 20% in 1983). As far as fairness, I got the same wage as a single man as a widow with three children. Was that fair? Yeah, we had a corrupt union leader; but after 34 years in the post office, I'm glad that I have a decent health care plan, can survive with my pension added to my wife's teaching pension. Later, I took a non-union job at Target for $12 an hour to help supplement things... I was told day to day when to come in and how many hours to work...no rights at all. There was plenty of unfairness there as well; and quite a few of these non-union workers depended on these jobs for their life, unlike some of us elders or students. Is that fair? Lynn


First Lynn, your analogy between your union job and target job makes no sense. So when you worked in the union you TOLD your union what hours and what days you were going to work? Interesting. So I guess you delivered the mail whenever you felt like it? Everyone I know that works in the union can't do that. Your statement of comparison is laughable. And YES, it is absolutely fair for an employer to tell it's workers when and what time they need to be at work. It's called scheduling so the facility/store can be staffed for business hours when they are open. There is NO RIGHT for a worker to TELL an employer when they are going to work. And yes, it is fair that quite a few of the non-union workers chose to work at Target and depended on their job. They are like EVERYONE else in the world, have to work to live.

I can't believe what I am reading from Lynn. What's happening with this world. Does the world OWE you anything? No! It doesn't. So put down the baby bottle and get back top work. Or you can chose to do nothing and complain the rest of your life of unfairness.

Geeesh.
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