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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Right or Wrong? » » Harmful exposure of Mentalists' props (23 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Arcobaleno
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I am not a full-time professional, just a beginner, but I was dismayed to come across a dealer's website called Propdog Magic. Unlike most dealers' sites, which show the effect of the tricks on offer but not the secret, this site has videos for every prop it sells which explicitly show the workings of the prop, and even discuss patters and handling. It goes through a whole range of gaffed wallets, imp pads and other mentalists notepads showing the inner workings and secret moves. None of this is passworded - it's all open to anyone who stumbles across it. It's actually more damaging than an exposure show like the Masked Magician, because you are hearing the exposure from the seller of the effect himself, so there can be no doubt that it's genuine.

It is one thing for conjuring effects to be exposed like this - undesirable but ultimately maybe not the end of the world for a skilled magician. But for the basic tools of a mentalist act to be exposed like this risks sinking the whole art for good. Once a significant proportion of specs are alerted to the existence of p**k wallets, imp pads etc., the underpinning of a lot of professional mentalists' acts is undermined. All the effort we put into building up atmosphere and suggesting a supernatural or psychic element is rendered faintly ludicrous if the spec knows we already know what was written on the billet. It doesn't matter whether he knows precisely how we did it - the fact he knows it is possible at all, and knows to be suspicious of ordinary-looking items, undermines our whole performance. If he also knows to pull the string or look under the cover, that of course is the ultimate credibility-damaging outcome.

Anyone else share this sense of unease?
thomasP
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A lot of gimmicks are exposed on youtube as soon as they are used for a TV show anyway.
If someone want to know it will.
We have to work more on the presentation, less on the effect.
WitchDocChris
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How many laymen do you think are actively looking for this kind of stuff?

The truth is, if the audience is thinking about your pad or wallet, you're already sunk. It means they are not engaged in the performance, and you are not eliciting the belief required for good mentalism.
Christopher
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Psycho Seance book: https://tinyurl.com/y873bbr4
Mr. Woolery
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I actually share the OP’s sense of unease at this. I hate to tell others how to do business, but I’d be happier with the demos and secrets behind a password on dealer sites.

Patrick
WitchDocChris
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What about it is making you uneasy?
Christopher
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Psycho Seance book: https://tinyurl.com/y873bbr4
the Sponge
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Here ya go, a two year old thread discussing the same thing:

https://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/view......&start=0
David Thiel
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Exposure of any stripe to ANYONE is the lowest form of bottom feeder betrayal of the art AND disrespect for secrets that are a huge part of what makes what we do a mystery. Period.

It is certainly true that if people go online to try to learn the nature of an effect that they already suspect they have been tricked. In a magic show that's perfectly reasonable. Magic is all about presenting 'tricks.' In a mentalism performance? Absolutely not. Part of mentalism's appeal is the tantalizing notion that what the audience is seeing just might be for real.

What we do is -- to one degree or another -- is based on keeping secrets...well...secret...of respecting the methods, concepts and ideas that allow us to present what we do to audiences.

And please...don't trot out that tiresome "you shouldn't be presenting mentalism as real" chestnut. Please...just don't.

As far as I am concerned -- if YOU have designed an effect that is unique and not based on anyone else's work -- and YOU decide to expose YOUR effect to the public? Go for it. But the fact is that those classically-pathetic-dried-up-bits-of-snot-dweebs who lack any sense of value within themselves have the mistaken notion that they can stop being CPDUBOSDs by exposing secrets designed by other people -- and performed by other people -- to the world.

That's theft.

That's betrayal.

Those who do it -- or companies that do -- are beneath contempt. Literally.

It is true that we live in a different age and that the vast majority of secrets can be purchased by anyone with the cash to do so. It's also true that many of the people doing the purchasing have the mistaken idea that, once they buy a prop/method/book, it's theirs to expose -- like they own it. Finally -- and depressingly -- it's also true that the secret can be bleated and blasted all over the world instantly by putting it on the internet.

Yup. It's all true -- but that doesn't make it right.

David
Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Except bears. Bears will kill you.


www.MindGemsBrainTrust.com
www.magicpendulums.com
www.MidnightMagicAndMentalism.com
IAIN
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Eternal Order
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All shops expose, SW**is, everything...it's a massive shame..

Wouldn't take much that when you create an account you answer two questions, if you answer them right, can access the video or product, if you can't then you just get the text equivalent...
Martin Pulman
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Quote:
On Dec 5, 2017, WitchDocChris wrote:
How many laymen do you think are actively looking for this kind of stuff?

The truth is, if the audience is thinking about your pad or wallet, you're already sunk. It means they are not engaged in the performance, and you are not eliciting the belief required for good mentalism.

Yes. How foolish of mentalists to spend all those decades trying to protect their secrets from open exposure.
Martin Pulman
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Quote:
On Dec 5, 2017, David Thiel wrote:
Exposure of any stripe to ANYONE is the lowest form of bottom feeder betrayal of the art AND disrespect for secrets that are a huge part of what makes what we do a mystery. Period.

It is certainly true that if people go online to try to learn the nature of an effect that they already suspect they have been tricked. In a magic show that's perfectly reasonable. Magic is all about presenting 'tricks.' In a mentalism performance? Absolutely not. Part of mentalism's appeal is the tantalizing notion that what the audience is seeing just might be for real.

What we do is -- to one degree or another -- is based on keeping secrets...well...secret...of respecting the methods, concepts and ideas that allow us to present what we do to audiences.

And please...don't trot out that tiresome "you shouldn't be presenting mentalism as real" chestnut. Please...just don't.

As far as I am concerned -- if YOU have designed an effect that is unique and not based on anyone else's work -- and YOU decide to expose YOUR effect to the public? Go for it. But the fact is that those classically-pathetic-dried-up-bits-of-snot-dweebs who lack any sense of value within themselves have the mistaken notion that they can stop being CPDUBOSDs by exposing secrets designed by other people -- and performed by other people -- to the world.

That's theft.

That's betrayal.

Those who do it -- or companies that do -- are beneath contempt. Literally.

It is true that we live in a different age and that the vast majority of secrets can be purchased by anyone with the cash to do so. It's also true that many of the people doing the purchasing have the mistaken idea that, once they buy a prop/method/book, it's theirs to expose -- like they own it. Finally -- and depressingly -- it's also true that the secret can be bleated and blasted all over the world instantly by putting it on the internet.

Yup. It's all true -- but that doesn't make it right.

David

Thank goodness their are still some voices of reason around here.
RCP
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Quote:
On Dec 5, 2017, Martin Pulman wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 5, 2017, WitchDocChris wrote:
How many laymen do you think are actively looking for this kind of stuff?

The truth is, if the audience is thinking about your pad or wallet, you're already sunk. It means they are not engaged in the performance, and you are not eliciting the belief required for good mentalism.

Yes. How foolish of mentalists to spend all those decades trying to protect their secrets from open exposure.


Mental-ist having nothing to fear but the mental magicians are doomed, doomed I say
KiKi
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It´s all about making money!
RCP
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Quote:
On Dec 5, 2017, KiKi wrote:
It´s all about making money!

That's what the real mental-ist said (did) a 150 years ago
George Hunter
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The "exposure" issue can be viewed in more than one way.

While I affirm the view that access to explanations should be password protected, I would like to affirm, and thank, the occasional magic shop that is willing to step out from behind the hype and tell us enough that we can judge whether the effect or prop fits our approach, competence, need and interest.

It is called "truth in advertising." It is not a new idea. Many demonstrators in the old brick and mortar shops showed or explained enough that a kid of any age could make an informed purchase decision.

The shift to internet shops has largely abandoned that kind of seller-buyer integrity. I have bought too many effects that, in the ads and endorsements, were simply misrepresented. You have too. Too often, the blatant misdirection begins in the selling phase.

If enough of us prioritized our shopping with vendors that told us enough, I'll bet we see change that would be good for the art, and its practitioners, and the shops.

George
Yepski
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Still trying to figure out “CPDUBOSDs”
thomasP
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Quote:
On Dec 5, 2017, RCP wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 5, 2017, KiKi wrote:
It´s all about making money!

That's what the real mental-ist said (did) a 150 years ago


Sure.
Show business is about money forever.
Lancy
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Hang on a second.......so mentalism isn't real? :O
David Thiel
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Quote:
On Dec 5, 2017, Yepski wrote:
Still trying to figure out “CPDUBOSDs”


It means: “classically-pathetic-dried-up-bits-of-snot-dweebs.”

Catchy, huh?

:)

David
Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Except bears. Bears will kill you.


www.MindGemsBrainTrust.com
www.magicpendulums.com
www.MidnightMagicAndMentalism.com
WitchDocChris
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Ok, so if the store shows what they are selling, they're exposing and that's bad.

But if a store doesn't show everything about what they are selling, they're hiding things and false advertising, and that's bad.

So what do you people actually want? No stores?
Christopher
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Psycho Seance book: https://tinyurl.com/y873bbr4
George Hunter
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The point is in the nuance. No one in this thread has called for the seller to show 'everything."

I simply reported my appreciation for sellers who explain enough for me to make an informed purchase decision.

If no one else appreciates that, and prefers to navigate purchase decisions informed only by the hype, some of the magic shops are glad to see you coming.

George
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