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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Right or Wrong? » » Harmful exposure of Mentalists' props (23 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Ceratini
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I don't think we should fear exposure on the net too much
If you google "spoon bending", you wil find about 250.000 posts.
Still a lot of people bends spoos successfully
theocreswell
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Hi all, first time poster so be nice!

I agree wholeheartedly that these products should be password protected so as to narrow the audience down to only those more serious about the craft. I do however feel that as online magic continues to make money, shops are going to be increasingly tempted to broaden their reach and advertise towards laymen and newer magicians who perhaps wouldn't respect the secrets to the same degree as someone more experienced. It seems to be a battle between making money and upholding the culture, and one where culture is loosing.

To look on the bright side, a prop or gimmick is only a tool, and to expose how a tool works does not expose the trick. It is our job to make our props psychologically invisible so that even if a layman did know how the prop we were using worked they would never put two and two together in a performance. If anything I feel it should just push us to think more creatively about our craft, not use a prop 'bare bones' and instead change routines to make them ours.

I think it was Banachek in his penguin live lecture who had an anecdote about a trick using a red handkerchief, the trick got so popular that everyone knew how it was done and could see through it. A magician came along and changed the colour of the handkerchief and it fooled everyone all over again, despite bing the same trick. I believe it is our presentation that fools people, not the method.

Thanks!
Theo
JanForster
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Both, Theo. Good method, but no presentation which does a lot to hide the method, is bad. No good method but nice presentation doesn’t help either. Many of us are far too lazy, no serious musician could behave like that. He needs technic (more than basic tools ...) and presentation/performace. Too often I heard, method is nothing, presentation is all. I disagree wholeheartedly, I prefer the best of both worlds. Jan
Jan Forster
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theocreswell
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Yes sorry, I didn't mean to convey the method wasn't important, more that in the case of newer magicians and mentalists, the most lacking thing is the presentation and moreover THEIR presentation. The method is like the skeletal structure and the presentation, the flesh. without the presentation you could see strength through the method but without the method the whole thing would a a confused pile of nothing.

I just thought that if their is a plus side to methods and gimmicks being exposed it could be that we focus less on what we are doing and more on how we make it individual and different thus expanding the range of performers and styles in our community.
Martin Pulman
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Quote:
On Dec 8, 2017, theocreswell wrote:


I just thought that if their is a plus side to methods and gimmicks being exposed it could be that we focus less on what we are doing and more on how we make it individual and different thus expanding the range of performers and styles in our community.

There is no plus side to methods and gimmicks being exposed. Just a complete disrespect for the craft.
George Hunter
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Not all explanation is "exposure," any more than all courtship is harassment or all teaching is indoctrination.

George
Martin Pulman
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On Dec 8, 2017, George Hunter wrote:
Not all explanation is "exposure," any more than all courtship is harassment or all teaching is indoctrination.

George

If methods and gimmicks are exposed it's exposure.
WitchDocChris
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So you've never learned anything from anyone else in regards to Mentalism? You invented every single one of your own methods and gimmicks?

Impressive.
Christopher
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Psycho Seance book: https://tinyurl.com/y873bbr4
theocreswell
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Quote:
There is no plus side to methods and gimmicks being exposed. Just a complete disrespect for the craft.


I understand that it may be a disrespect to the craft but it is happening and will continue to happen, especially with the rise in the popularity of magic in teens who have enough money just to buy whatever material they want and not see the value in it. I feel that rather than complain about it we should try and do something about it, we should educate new magicians and change the magic culture.

I strongly believe that if you can find some good in something then you should, and I can say with no uncertainty that the increase in the public's knowledge of methods has made me a better and more individual performer.

Theo
Martin Pulman
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Quote:
On Dec 8, 2017, theocreswell wrote:
Quote:
There is no plus side to methods and gimmicks being exposed. Just a complete disrespect for the craft.


I understand that it may be a disrespect to the craft but it is happening and will continue to happen, especially with the rise in the popularity of magic in teens who have enough money just to buy whatever material they want and not see the value in it.

Theo

I thought we were talking about magic sites exposing secrets in their advertising? I don't understand what people paying for effects has to do with that?
Djin
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I'm of the "sharpen up our pitchforks" camp.
theocreswell
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I guess what I'm trying to say is that

1. Magic sites should not expose secrets in their advertising- we all agree that there should be some kind of buffer between the laymen and the secret
2. General exposure of secrets are on the rise
3. In the wider magic community there seems to be a diminishing respect for the secrets - I believe this to be down to a lot of newer magicians who just buy something with little thought to the value of what they're buying (12 year olds with rich parents)
4. the new magician market is bigger than the hardcore magicians
5. this big market of newbie magicians is very tempting for stores to sell to- if I was marketing to a newer magician I would do it by exposing secrets too.

I'm sorry I wasn't trying to be confusing or irritating, I just want to try and look at the bigger problem. Exposure keeps cropping up as an issue and I think how we try and handle it is an interesting topic.
I support what you say and yea we should be against how easy it is to access.

I was trying to add some 'glass half full'' mentality to this topic, and you can't argue that the exposure doesn't force you to think more creatively. What I'm trying to say makes sense in my head but I'm sorry if I'm not communicating it very well.

-T
George Hunter
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This is a useful discussion. Although the thread has an outlier or two, most seem to agree that any allusions to method should be password protected. At one point, I expressed appreciation for shops that at least explain enough for the prospective buyer to make an informed decision.

That may be a minority view. At least the most vocal in our fellowship insist that ANY disclosure is "exposure"--which functions as a four-letter word. IF you know exactly where the line is between informing and exposing, then good for you!

In any case, our community widely ignores two much wider problems.

1. It's not so much that many marketers "expose" the secrets within props and effects as that many marketers misrepresent, i.e., lie about the product. And when a developer's buddies jump in and add their hyped "endorsements," the false witness becomes plausible and alluring.

2. The other widely unacknowledged problem is intellectual property theft. They are marketing something that is not theirs. With only a name change and a tweak or two plus aggressive marketing, they are selling something they plagiarized.

Most of us have been ill served much more often by lying and theft than by exposure. But these two problems have not yet attracted much road rage.

George
Martin Pulman
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Quote:
On Dec 9, 2017, George Hunter wrote: IF you know exactly where the line is between informing and exposing, then good for you!


It's when the secret is exposed. it's the code magic has operated under for decades. It doesn't require a degree in mathematics to understand it.
innercirclewannabe
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[/quote]
It's when the secret is exposed. it's the code magic has operated under for decades. It doesn't require a degree in mathematics to understand it. [/quote]

It’s even longer than decades.
Tá sé ach cleas má dhéanann tú sé cuma mhaith ar cheann.
George Hunter
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While my capacity for repeated assertion does not match that of some guys, let me try one more time to nuance our discussion.

1. Sufficient explanation to inform a purchase may not be the same as blatant "exposure." Acknowledgements that a prop or effect involves electronics or magnetism are commonplace. And, often, the seller can suggest that the effect involves (say) a sleight, a move, or a subtlety, or even more specifically (say) a double lift or an olram subtlety. Such disclosure stops quite short of exposure.

2. The comments that the "secrets" issue is a long-standing struggle are right on. An one example, Eugene Burger reflected in The Experience of Magic that "the fuss" about secrets, exposure, and the deceptions of magic vendors rages from time to time. But "surprisingly little . . . ever really happens." The book was published in 1989.

George
Martin Pulman
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This thread is about an allegation that a magic dealer is exposing the secret moves and inner workings of effects on videos open to anyone. That's exposure. I'm not quite sure where the confusion or need for "nuance" is coming from. Either they are or they aren't.

I know that ethics and morals have all but been abandoned in magic and mentalism, but surely the majority -even here- still stand in opposition to exposure?
George Hunter
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A thread is about the initial topic plus whatever else the participants choose to reflect on--some of which may be off topic, but some of which contributes to the topic from related or wider perspectives. It does not take a degree in logic, or in common sense, to understand that.

George
theocreswell
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Quote:
On Dec 10, 2017, Martin Pulman wrote:
I know that ethics and morals have all but been abandoned in magic and mentalism, but surely the majority -even here- still stand in opposition to exposure?


certainly, the majority stand against exposure, why wouldn't they?

-T
thomasP
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Quote:
On Dec 10, 2017, Martin Pulman wrote:
This thread is about an allegation that a magic dealer is exposing the secret moves and inner workings of effects on videos open to anyone. That's exposure. I'm not quite sure where the confusion or need for "nuance" is coming from. Either they are or they aren't.

I know that ethics and morals have all but been abandoned in magic and mentalism, but surely the majority -even here- still stand in opposition to exposure?


Sure we are in opposition.
But looking further, there will be more and more exposure, and less and less secrets.
That fight is already lost.
So we have to adapt, to evolve.
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