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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
I've deeply considered the rights of both parties. I just don't agree with your conclusions.
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Quote:
On Dec 10, 2017, S2000magician wrote: I'll bite. What do you find absurd about that? (Other than the absurd premise which I am not responsible for.)
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All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3163 Posts |
Could a man dressed in a white sheet and hood buy a cake?
Could a magician refuse to do a show for a KKK meeting? Magicians turn down shows all the time for all sorts of reasons, why are they different from the cake artist? Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts |
Quote:
On Dec 10, 2017, landmark wrote: I didn't scour the thread, so perhaps I don't understand the premises fully. If you're saying that the baker must accept an order from someone they know to be a Nazi, then your statement is absurd. If, however, you're saying that if the baker had accepted the order, then you're correct that the baker must make the cake or else be in breach of contract, then you're correct. However, that's not a free speech issue; it's a breach of contract issue. George is correct about the original court case: it's ridiculous. Grow up and go to another baker. |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
I think it would help to read the thread to see why this premise was proposed. I agree that it's not very realistic, but I responded to it in the spirit of a thought experiment.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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NYCTwister Loyal user 267 Posts |
Quote:
On Dec 10, 2017, landmark wrote: You mean like the nightmare of a dominant ideology we have now? Since there is no fair way to prevent it by force, I guess the ultimate protection in the very long run, is faith in humanity.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Really, that's the best we can do? Accept that there's nothing to be done? A little too convenient.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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NYCTwister Loyal user 267 Posts |
Quote:
On Dec 10, 2017, S2000magician wrote: Basically it's gone, free speech > gay bakery > freedom to discriminate > various cake scenarios > socialism vs. capitalism. Pretty much the usual. The underlying issue is whether freedom of expression allows for discrimination in a private setting. Quote:
George is correct about the original court case: it's ridiculous. Grow up and go to another baker. Or write a bad Yelp review and a nasty FB post - and let the people decide.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Quote:
On Dec 10, 2017, landmark wrote: As is the constant complaining and endless victim searching.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
LOL. Come on, a little substance.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Quote:
The underlying issue is whether freedom of expression allows for discrimination in a private setting. Not quite. A public business is not the same as a private club or one's living room.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Quote:
Or write a bad Yelp review and a nasty FB post - and let the people decide. What happened pre-1964 in large parts of this country is a testament to the utter failure of that policy--even without FB.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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NYCTwister Loyal user 267 Posts |
Quote:
On Dec 10, 2017, landmark wrote: Who said there's nothing to be done? I happen to have great faith in humanity, and it isn't blind faith. Come writers and critics Who prophesies with your pen And keep your eyes wide The chance won't come again And don't speak too soon For the wheel's still in spin And there's no tellin' who That it's namin'. For the loser now Will be later to win For the times they are a-changin'. We're still evolving Jack, and if we don't kill ourselves, we'll figure this **** out. Humanity has problems - luckily we're good at solving problems.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts |
Quote:
On Dec 10, 2017, landmark wrote: I did, and the only relevant post I saw was the one I quoted. It appears that you're saying that if I choose to provide a good or service to someone - anyone - then I'm obligated to provide that same good or service to everyone. That's absurd. |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
NYCT, I think it's pretty safe to say that it wasn't Yelp reviews that made the times a-change back then.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Quote:
On Dec 10, 2017, S2000magician wrote: There is already a set of protected classes, so if it's absurd, then that must be absurd as well. My notion--since we're talking about free speech--is to add one's political views as a protected factor. http://www.insidetucsonbusiness.com/news......87a.html
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
I guess I'm finding it fairly mindboggling that the majority on this thread are quite all right with turning back the anti-discrimination laws back to more than half a century ago, when Black people had to fight and die to get the right to sit at a lunch counter. Well, I don't think I really have much more to say here.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Anand Khalsa Loyal user Phoenix, AZ 201 Posts |
Quote:
On Dec 9, 2017, NYCTwister wrote: The idea that enforced racial integration did nothing to increase tolerance and shift generational attitudes is quite simply a falsehood. The positive cultural impact of Civil Rights legislation is well documented and largely undisputed. While I won't twist your argument, as others might, and claim you are ideologically opposed to the values of the Civil Rights movement, I do believe that you have constructed an unfalsifiable belief system that clings on to a very narrow view of 20th-century American history. It's an interesting discussion, and while I disagree with your position, it's evident you've put quite a lot of thought into it. |
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
Landmark:
Don't abandon the thread now, landmark! If I'm wrong in my position, then I would want you to convince me to change my mind. If, as I believe, your view is dangerous, then I would want further opportunity to convince you to change your mind (as I'm sure you'd want for yourself). Let me pick up a couple of points: "I guess I'm finding it fairly mindboggling that the majority on this thread are quite all right with turning back the anti-discrimination laws back to more than half a century ago, when Black people had to fight and die to get the right to sit at a lunch counter." The fact that you are surprised (minboggled!) by the majority viewpoint here suggests you may have been inhabiting an echo-chamber or ideological bubble, which cannot be intellectually healthy. This is another good reason to stick around. Do you realise how prevalent the viewpoint the majority here represents actually is? Why do you think that may be so? Also, speaking only for myself, I'm not in favour of turning the clock back to a time of racial discrimination - rather I want to move forward away from the current discrimination! That which was a force for freedom and liberty in times past has now become the side of discrimination and anti-liberty. The anti-discrimination laws and worldview which helped dismantle a truly racist and oppressive system have become the tools of oppression and bigotry. Remember, we now live in a society and time where people can be banned from entering my country because they said something against Islam; people can have their livelihoods ruined and face credible death threats for refusing to make a cake for a gay wedding; teachers can be sacked for accidentally using the wrong pronouns for trans students; where people go to jail for online trolling; where speakers are routinely de-platformed, shouted down and abused because they believe something slightly out of step with PC thought policing; people can be forced into re-education programmes for wrong-think; people can be fired for saying that men and women are different ... and so on and so on. I post anonymously out of genuine fear for my child's wellbeing, out of fear that I could lose my job simply for the thoughts I expressed in this very post right now. This is not a healthy state of society - it is riddled with an ideological cancer. And the answer is freedom, not repression. Obviously, I'm not comparing these problems with the suffering endured by people of colour or the LGBT community or many other marginalised groups in the past, but it is real, it is dangerous, and it needs to be tackled. Classical liberal values of personal freedom and responsibility, robust free speech and thought, meritocracy and true tolerance are, in my opinion, the best means of resolving this situation. It is an important debate, an important cause. Regarding your view on baker's and hoteliers, I admit I'm confused by what appears to me to be a somewhat immoral and incoherent position. You would force a Jewish sign writer who, say, made a sign publicising an Anti-Semitic rally to also make a pro-Nazi poster? Yet wouldn't force a Christian baker to make a cake for a gay wedding when they make cakes for heterosexual weddings because somehow these are different, and yet also force a hotel owner to rent rooms to gay weddings if they have previously catered for heterosexual weddings because somehow these are the same thing? Help me understand your view, and how this will solve our current societal problems. |
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NYCTwister Loyal user 267 Posts |
Quote:
On Dec 10, 2017, landmark wrote: A business that deals with the public, but is privately owned, is not a public business.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
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