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Terrible Wizard
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One thing about the responses I did get to my questions (why so many skipped them I don't know), is that some think women are paid less than men. I admit I find that hard to believe, at least for the UK where it's been illegal for 40+ years (and with massive popular support). Is it different in the US?
George Ledo
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On Dec 16, 2017, NYCTwister wrote:
I'd like to know what it is; because on the surface...it's disturbing.

Why those words?

And...banned on government documents?

Orwell is doing a spit take right about now.

I posted this elsewhere, so I'm just going to quote it:

The seven words are blocked specifically in budget documents and requests. Now, we know who is going to review those documents, right? Members of Congress. We also know that members of Congress just love to sidetrack conversations by grabbing on to a term or word and going off on long debates about its meaning; it's an old trick to disorient people. Heck, trial lawyers do the same thing.

For instance, the term "fetus." A lawmaker can hijack the discussion by going off on requesting a definition of the word, and then debating it, instead of talking about the subject matter. And they love to do this.

So, my suggestion to CDC was (I wrote them a note this morning) to look at the bright side: find someone (or several someones) who can translate budget documents into fourth-grade English and submit them that way. Take away the opportunity to hijack the discussion by going off on tangents.

Now, do I believe for one second that CDC will discuss this idea internally even for a moment? Heck no.
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NYCTwister
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Quote:
On Dec 17, 2017, George Ledo wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 16, 2017, NYCTwister wrote:
I'd like to know what it is; because on the surface...it's disturbing.

Why those words?

And...banned on government documents?

Orwell is doing a spit take right about now.

I posted this elsewhere, so I'm just going to quote it:

The seven words are blocked specifically in budget documents and requests. Now, we know who is going to review those documents, right? Members of Congress. We also know that members of Congress just love to sidetrack conversations by grabbing on to a term or word and going off on long debates about its meaning; it's an old trick to disorient people. Heck, trial lawyers do the same thing.

For instance, the term "fetus." A lawmaker can hijack the discussion by going off on requesting a definition of the word, and then debating it, instead of talking about the subject matter. And they love to do this.

So, my suggestion to CDC was (I wrote them a note this morning) to look at the bright side: find someone (or several someones) who can translate budget documents into fourth-grade English and submit them that way. Take away the opportunity to hijack the discussion by going off on tangents.

Now, do I believe for one second that CDC will discuss this idea internally even for a moment? Heck no.


Plain English?

How quaint.
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Jonathan Townsend
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?
Quote:
... my suggestion to CDC was (I wrote them a note this morning) to look at the bright side: find someone (or several someones) who can translate budget documents into fourth-grade English and submit them that way. Take away the opportunity to hijack the discussion by going off on tangents.

"my"?

Was that a tweet from POTUS - link?
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Jonathan Townsend
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Regarding the OP and "in the US"... see 15 CFR 760.2 item (a)(1) to start for context.

Tangentially, off course
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stoneunhinged
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Quote:
On Dec 17, 2017, Terrible Wizard wrote:
One thing about the responses I did get to my questions (why so many skipped them I don't know), is that some think women are paid less than men. I admit I find that hard to believe, at least for the UK where it's been illegal for 40+ years (and with massive popular support). Is it different in the US?


Please do not think that all of us are ignoring you. I just spent a week away to attend my father's funeral in Hong Kong, and returned with a nasty head cold and a desk (and multiple classrooms) full of work. NYtwister is still waiting for me to post something about Ayn Rand, and that's been at least a year! I'm a slow poster.

Regarding the question of whether men and women are equally paid: a perfect example of what I call "intellectual urban legend." My wife and I got into a rather nasty argument about it, because questioning the validity of the claim that the gender pay gap is at least 20% is like being a flat-earther. Yet the 20% figure--sacrosanct--is complete BS.

It's interesting how many "statistics" have become dogma. This is one of them. Everyone "knows" that women earn 80% of what men earn in the USA. And yes, it's illegal (true) and the result of discrimination (questionable).

What's peculiar about American democracy is the consistent appeal to fairness. It's not so much that we expect the same wealth or fame or platform to speak freely as much as we expect to be given an equal chance to obtain wealth or fame or a platform to speak freely. What distinguishes left and right these days is a disagreement regarding what constitutes an "equal chance."

The dogma about the gender pay gap is this: women are being denied the chance to be paid the same money for the same work as what a man is paid. That is unfair and needs to be changed. That this is dogma rather than truth is part and parcel of American democracy.
Terrible Wizard
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Cool stoneunhinged, so the US is the same as the UK, then, and has equal pay laws? That is how I thought it was, which is why it surprised me that I got replies from people who thought otherwise.

I really can't think of any organisation in the UK that has made the news recently for paying women and men different wages. And those that do are surely breaking the law and will sooner or later get caught.
stoneunhinged
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Yes, equal pay is at least as old as I am: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Pay_Act_of_1963


The claim is that the law doesn't work, because...well...80% and all that. Again, this is something everybody knows, even if it is not true.
Dannydoyle
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I have seen the equal pay thing for a long time and it is odd to me.

Women and babies and all that. If a woman is going to leave for a family, are they as valuable to a company overall as a man who will not leave? I don't know but I do see the discussion point. I mean men leave for family reasons as well don't they? It is not as simple as it seems on the surface.

The odd part is that Hillary Clinton is a champion of this cause, and VERY guilty of paying women less. Go figure.
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Terrible Wizard
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I agree it's nowhere near as simple as surface investigations make it appear to be.

Biology obviously plays a huge factor, even apart from babies, breast feeding and motherly instincts (IQ distribution; language/mathematical skill distribution; upper body strength; capacity for violence; competitive drive; physical risk aversion; cold and dirt climate endurance; aesthetic interest; autism distribution; life expectancy, etc etc).

Add onto that lot a boat load of cultural factors and all the complexities of individual variation, and what do you get? Nothing as straighforward as, 'women are paid less than men' or 'quotas will dismantle sexism', that's for sure! Smile
lunatik
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I don't know why some companies don't pay according to ones skill set, regardless of their sex. If you can do the job well, why would there be a discrepancy in pay? Can I name any specific company that does this? No, I haven't looked into it far enough.
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Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On Dec 20, 2017, stoneunhinged wrote:
...
It's interesting how many "statistics" have become dogma. ...


And if you're following the news today, add "rounded to the nearest 500".
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Terrible Wizard
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If companies could pay women less, why would they even hire men at all?
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On Dec 20, 2017, Terrible Wizard wrote:
If companies could pay women less, why would they even hire men at all?


Here's one perspective: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/24/opini......ing.html
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Terrible Wizard
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How does that article explain why companies wouldn't choose to hire women on a lower wage than men for the same job???

It seems to offer various cultural or economic explanations for why women wouldn't choose to enter the workforce, or would seek lower paid or less prestigious employment, but I'm not sure where it talks about why businesses would seek to pay their staff more than they have to?

Confused?

For a more UK specific study:
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/877679......omen-men
0pus
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Quote:
On Dec 20, 2017, Terrible Wizard wrote:
If companies could pay women less, why would they even hire men at all?


Maybe it is because men are making the hiring decisions.
Terrible Wizard
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Huh? So a business which could reduce wages and increase profits would rather hire more expensive staff because men prefer other men to money? If we're just playing the 'most men are sexist' card wouldn't that favour the idea that men would hire young females on low wages? Makes no sense at all.
NYCTwister
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Quote:
On Dec 20, 2017, Terrible Wizard wrote:
Huh? So a business which could reduce wages and increase profits would rather hire more expensive staff because men prefer other men to money? If we're just playing the 'most men are sexist' card wouldn't that favour the idea that men would hire young females on low wages? Makes no sense at all.


It's an "old boys" type of thing; based on fear, and ultimately rooted in shame.

The sexism would cause them to see the man as the better value, since men are better at everything. As an underling, and possibly an object...sure.
As an equal? No freaking way.

Also the "alpha male" mentality needs a competition they themselves can respect. Competing against weak women is shameful.

In your scenario the sexist male would, in order to save money, be surrounded by lower paid females that he considered good only for things which had nothing to do with the job he needed them to do.

And that's just the heterosexual aspects.

Is it less confusing now?
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Dannydoyle
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Actually no that seems like a lot of leaps.
Danny Doyle
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Terrible Wizard
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I assume Twister is being sarcastic. At least I hope so, because otherwise ....
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