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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Free Speech (32 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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NYCTwister
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Nope.

Surely you have men in the U.K. who believe that a woman's place is in the home.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
Terrible Wizard
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Oh, you're serious.
NYCTwister
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Like you said, it's not logical. Therefore the reason must be illogical.
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Terrible Wizard
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The reason for what?
NYCTwister
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The reason that men would hire a man at a higher rate.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On Dec 21, 2017, Terrible Wizard wrote:
I assume Twister is being sarcastic. At least I hope so, because otherwise ....


If you state your position in context (and it's motivating drivers, please) we can discuss.

That's not an enthymeme Smile
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Terrible Wizard
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NYCTwister:

I'm genuinely surprised and interested in your position - it seems quite shocking to me, and I'd like to know why you think the way you do.

First, I better make sure I have a handle on exactly what your POV is Smile

So, to be clear, do you believe that:
A) women are often paid less than men (for the same work, having the same qualifications) in the US and UK?
B) it is legal for companies to pay women less than men for the same job?
C) that if it was legal to pay women less, companies would generally still prefer to hire men?
D) that companies presently prefer to hire men rather than women (assuming all other things being equal)?
E) that the main reason men prefer to hire other men is sexism?
F) that these sexist hiring and pay variations is the principle reason behind the average earning difference across genders?

Thanks in advance for your answers and a no-doubt stimulating discussion! Smile
NYCTwister
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Quote:
On Dec 21, 2017, Terrible Wizard wrote:
NYCTwister:

I'm genuinely surprised and interested in your position - it seems quite shocking to me, and I'd like to know why you think the way you do.

First, I better make sure I have a handle on exactly what your POV is Smile

So, to be clear, do you believe that:


A) women are often paid less than men (for the same work, having the same qualifications) in the US and UK?
I don't know about "often".

B) it is legal for companies to pay women less than men for the same job?
I don't know, but probably not here. I don't know about the UK.

C) that if it was legal to pay women less, companies would generally still prefer to hire men?
D) that companies presently prefer to hire men rather than women (assuming all other things being equal)?
I'm speaking about sexist males, not companies in general.

E) that the main reason men prefer to hire other men is sexism?
Sexist men...yes

F) that these sexist hiring and pay variations is the principle reason behind the average earning difference across genders?
I'd imagine it's a factor.

Why does this surprise you?

Like all improper inequalities it's being addressed by evolution.

Btw, you never mentioned if you knew any backward thinking males.

Also btw, my name is Dan.
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Terrible Wizard
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Ok, it seems I might have misunderstood you - I thought your view was something other than it was.

It seems, if I'm not mistaken, that your POV on the wage gap is that on the occasions where sexist men prefer to hire men over women it's for sexist reasons. I'm not sure that is much of a shocking view, but neither am I sure it says much about the real world at all! Oh well, my bad.

If you'd have answered that you thought women were often paid less than men, or that it was legal for companies to pay women differently, or that many companies preferred to hire men over women, or that most men were sexist, or that this was a major reason for the earnings gap, or something like that, then I'd find that shocking.

Regarding do I know any men who think a woman's place is in the home, no, I've never met any (assuming you mean men who think women should never work).
NYCTwister
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It's not a shocking view at all; which is why I asked why you were surprised.

As far as the real world it's less prevalent now than it was fifty years ago; and it should be better fifty years from now.
Like I said, evolution.

I find it hard to believe that you've never met an alpha male, but if that's true it explains the general tone of your posts.
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Terrible Wizard
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Your view isn't shocking, no. But what I thought your view was is shocking.

Never met an alpha male? What is an alpha male (in human terms)? How does that connect to my own view? What time?

My view, to be clear: I don't think there is a pay disparity between men and women and that it is a bit nonsensical to think there is; that it is clearly and obviously illegal to pay men and women different rates (all other things being equal); I don't think personal sexism has any significant role to play in why women on average earn less than men, rather it's mostly down to biology and culture; therefore gender quotas, affirmative action for females, and the such like are wholly unecessary, even harmful to society (in the UK at least, and prob the US).
NYCTwister
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If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
Terrible Wizard
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I don't trust governments. I don't trust big social media. The two together are trouble Smile

Why does it seem so few people, especially those in power, care much for freedom of speech and freedom of ideas? Rhetorical question, I guess.

Facebook is too big. I'd be ok with private companies choosing to censor who and what they wanted so long as: a) there was genuine, varied competition in the marketplace, and b) they had to be transparent about it.

Also, what was that alpha male thing all about?
NYCTwister
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Those in power fear free speech and free exchange of ideas because those are the things that can cause them to lose power.
Look at the restriction Iran is placing on social media during these protests; citing a possible danger to the public due to "incitement". The powerful love to invoke the impossible to define "greater good".

The alpha male thing was my attempt to explain the reason certain men would hire a higher priced man.

Happy New Year Mr. TW.

Hang on brother! According to all the crazies this is the year where the feces will come in contact with the air circulating device.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
Terrible Wizard
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Lol Smile

Happy New Year!
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