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Terrible Wizard
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Do you think equal access to speaking should mean equal access to all media, from pamphlets to TV ads to tee-shirts designs to sports sponsorship to cinema product placement to time in government debates to books printed to .... Etc.?

You seem to think of equality primarily in terms of 'equity of outcome' rather than 'equal opportunity'. That can only be effected through very radical communistic means, and even then doesn't remove all inequalities.
Dannydoyle
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On Dec 9, 2017, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 9, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
The solution is not less freedom, it is more. The solution to hate speech is to allow it and let it be seen for what it actually is.


I agree with you on this. And in order for that to happen, people must have equal access to speaking. Money should not be the deciding factor. If some people have access to a nationwide network of television and radio stations as well as a newspaper empire, then it's silly to say that their views are just one more voice in the "free market" of ideas. Some people have way more access to that market than others.


Sorry but too bad. You can not guarantee outcomes. As much as you pine away for it that is simply not what America is about and never has been.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
landmark
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On Dec 9, 2017, Terrible Wizard wrote:
I don't believe positions on affirmative action and allowable free market discrimination are unreconcilable. Here's one harmonisation option:

A) Laws, government bodies, state run and publicly funded institutions cannot enact any discriminatory policies ...

B) Entirely private companies, whether it's a private school or hardware store or hotel or whatever, can have whatever discriminatory polices they wish so long as they are transparent and upfront - ... but they couldn't be owned, run or funded by the state. There can be no legitimate private monopolies and there must be a genuine free market.

C) No body, state or private, can fire/discipline employees for any wrong-think, wrong-speech or wrong-affiliation...

D) The state should not have anti-discrimination or hate speech laws and the such like...


Thanks for such a clear outlining of your views. I think we have a lot of overlap, but some definite disagreements:

I think we would have no problem agreeing with each other on the principles of C and D, though I think there are many actual cases I could point out for C which most conservatives and some libertarians ignore (for example, the example in the OP). But on the whole, we agree on C and D.

On A, we agree in principle as well--but I think we would have definite disagreements on what the principle covers. For example, since I am against discriminating on race, I would ban using the SATs as a public college entry requirement, as there is a significant body of research which shows that the exam is discriminatory in both make-up and outcome. The last time I looked at this, the thing the SATs were best in predicting was the economic status of one's grandparents. So I think if you really want to ban discrimination and be meritocratic, admission requirements have to actually be valid (not just reliable) and address, predict, how well the student is going to do in college. You have to really look at what potentially will that student's contribution be to the college and the wider society. What is the measurement for meritocracy supposed to measure?

On B, we clearly don't agree, even on principle. I don't think there is such a thing as a free market, nor do I think it is possible under capitalism to stop monopolies or effectively equivalent structures from forming. And the less regulation, the quicker it happens as can be seen by the whole of capitalism's history since the 1500s. The cute tiger cub grows into the tiger whether we like it or not. I think one would have to be willfully blind to history to deny this.
landmark
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On Dec 9, 2017, Terrible Wizard wrote:

You seem to think of equality primarily in terms of 'equity of outcome' rather than 'equal opportunity'. That can only be effected through very radical communistic means, and even then doesn't remove all inequalities.


Unless you agree that "one dollar, one vote" is the standard of democracy, and not "one person, one vote," then free speech is meaningless if it depends on the number of dollars you have. If you think that's radically communistic, well... I agree that democracy is incompatible with capitalism.

It reminds me of the story of the mother who bought her son a football uniform but warned him not to get it dirty...
landmark
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that is simply not what America is about and never has been.

I will refrain from asking you what you think America is about, and what it has been. I don't think the answer is particularly pretty.
George Ledo
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I'm going to stick my nose in here for one post and then stick it out again.

IMHO, this whole argument is a crock of the smelly stuff, and, also IMHO, it's all fueled by people who have no common sense and want everything to be an absolute because it's easier than thinking. Years ago I had a conversation with a box-office person at a local theatre; every time a customer asked something unusual (which happens in any business), she wanted to write up a policy for it. I heard this several times and finally told her that if there were a written policy for every eventuality, the policy manual would be about the size of the Encyclopedia Britannica.

Not to mention that nobody would have any time to sell tickets because they would have to spend all their time keeping up with the darn thing.

The bakery case? As far as I'm concerned, the owner was a jerk for turning down the business. Also, as far as I'm concerned, he could turn down the business if he wanted to. Maybe it wasn't what he said but how he said it (or maybe he could have used a little common sense), but that's another conversation. The guys who sued? They were jerks too. Grow up, go to another bakery, and then tell people about the guy who wouldn't make you a cake. It's that simple. Worked for many years and still works all the time. But instead here we are spending ink (okay, pixels) and taxpayer money on taking this to court.

Free speech? How many other countries would let late-night comedians hammer away mercilessly and continually at the head of state? That's free speech.

I'm going to take you to court because I don't like what you said? Grow up. That's like saying I think my speech is freer than yours.

And on that note, I'm outta here.
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TomBoleware
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Well said George.

I can't see how it can get much better than it is now.

I can say anything I want, and my common sense tells me
I sometimes need to say it out of sight of a few.Smile
Besides we all know trying to please everybody is impossible.

Tom
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Terrible Wizard
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George:
It seems a bit weird to want to say your piece, especially if it contains implicit insults, and then duck back out of sight without allowing others to either defend themselves, or have their own position critiqued. But largely I agree with you. Oh well Smile

Tom:
You can't see how it can get better? And I thought I was a pessimist, lol Smile. The very fact that you can't please everyone pretty much supports my political positions on Liberty, free speech and democracy. Cool, huh? Smile

Landmark:
Glad we agree on so much! Smile

I agree with your SAT point, the best possible/practical metrics shoukd ideally be used for meritocracy to become more effective. That's not a point of principled disagreement, only a point of praxis. I'm happy to go where the evidence leads on which metrics are best reflective of who is best for the position.

So the only two actual points of disagreement between us seem to be:
A) I think private companies can totally choose their own customers and operating ethos, you prefer there to be some restrictions which I find oppressive of personal liberties and freedom.

B) I think that democracy is largely compatible with capitalism, whereas you don't and want some sort of radical redistributive communistic economic system.

Ok, cool. I guess we'll each push for our ideas in the market place of ideas and let the chips fall where they may Smile.

Are you really sure you agree with no one being fired for wrong speech?
Dannydoyle
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On Dec 9, 2017, landmark wrote:
Quote:
that is simply not what America is about and never has been.

I will refrain from asking you what you think America is about, and what it has been. I don't think the answer is particularly pretty.


It is and has been orders of magnitude better than your idolized socialist utopias.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
George Ledo
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On Dec 9, 2017, Terrible Wizard wrote:
George:
It seems a bit weird to want to say your piece, especially if it contains implicit insults, and then duck back out of sight without allowing others to either defend themselves, or have their own position critiqued. But largely I agree with you. Oh well Smile

Okay, I'll come back in for one more post. Smile

One, I was very clear that what I said was my personal opinion. That's free speech.

Two, If someone wants to take what I said as an insult, that's their prerogative. If they want to respond, that's their prerogative. That's free speech too.

Three, I didn't "duck back out of sight without allowing others to either defend themselves, or have their own position critiqued." I have no control over whether someone else responds to what I said. You did. Smile That's free speech too. However, I do not feel required to be drawn into a debate with people who don't agree with my personal opinion. They are free to express theirs.

And that's free speech too.

Now I'm outta here. Smile
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Dick Oslund
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Very well said, George! (Besides you said everything that I would have said!) I am not planning to stick around here either.
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
landmark
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Are you really sure you agree with no one being fired for wrong speech?


I would be hard-pressed to think of an example. I suppose if you work for Coca Cola and you say Coke sucks, drink Pepsi, it's a firing offense. But I think we're talking about the expression of political beliefs, in which case, I can't think of an example.
Terrible Wizard
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George:
Glad I could goad you back for one more reply.
Lol, yes, free speech is a right afforded even to cowards and those who like to hold opinions without discussion. Smile
Terrible Wizard
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Landmark:

Just to be clear, you're permissive of Nazi teachers, yes?
magicfish
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The internet has destroyed freedom of speech.
You will say what social media wants you to say or you will lose your job, your friends, your family.
Resistance is futile.
Period.
Jonathan Townsend
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On Dec 9, 2017, landmark wrote:
... [1 -jt]Y ou have to really look at what potentially will that student's contribution be to the college and the wider society. What is the measurement for meritocracy supposed to measure?
[2 -jt] I don't think there is such a thing as a free market, nor do I think it is possible under capitalism to stop monopolies or effectively equivalent structures from forming....


"contribution" - as predicted in what context or dialog (snark: consider this hypothetical comment from a college entrance review "we don't have anyone here from that village in China so close to Tibet - they ought to be fun")

Has there been any real analysis of this wealth accretion and steady state distributions as an iterated "game" over time? That's effectively "barrier to entry/ownership" for us everyday folks who might think about Tucker or Tesla or basic patent protections when it comes to the real economy.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
TomBoleware
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On Dec 9, 2017, magicfish wrote:
The internet has destroyed freedom of speech.
You will say what social media wants you to say or you will lose your job, your friends, your family.
Resistance is futile.
Period.



Yes the internet has changed things. I am amazed to see some professional magicians on facebook get so caught up in the political debates. It’s like they don’t have a clue that customers and potential clients may be listening in and have a completely different opinion of what is being forced on others. Having a ‘right’ to say something doesn’t mean it is always right to say it. Politics, Religion, and Business don’t always mix so well. The internet is the perfect place to try and force your own opinion on others, and I often wonder if it is the same with some in real life.

Tom
"Entrepreneurs are willing to work 80 hours a week to avoid working 40 hours a week"--Lori Greiner

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Terrible Wizard
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Magic fish and Tom - I think there is truth in what you both say.
NYCTwister
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Https://nypost.com/2017/12/09/students-w......ee-shop/

I am soooooo tired of everyone's hurt feelings.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
landmark
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The internet is the perfect place to try and force your own opinion on others,


Force opinions, really? Maybe I'm just lucky, but no one has ever reached through my computer screen and grabbed me by the throat yet. Neither has anyone forced me to read any thread either, ever. Surely I can't be the only one.
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