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magicfish
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Dr SH
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I guess it is like any new technology, we need to understand its limits , try to focus on the positive and balance the negative. Education is the key to use any technology.
magicfish
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On Jan 6, 2018, Dr SH wrote:
I guess it is like any new technology, we need to understand its limits , try to focus on the positive and balance the negative. Education is the key to use any technology.

Good point Dr. I thought it an interesting article.
funsway
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While I agree with most of the concerns expressed, it does seem a bit like blaming the horse for your cart winding up at the saloon instead of school or church.

Society seems to be de-evolving in various ways, and un-social media is possibly accelerating that. But the decline in personal responsibility, integrity and even hope
began long before the new century. Many today never develop interpersonal skills essential to face-to-face communication and don't even understand what they are missing.
I read recently that most teenagers never develop a personality - assuming they can just borrow one on FaceBook when needed for a job or marriage.

Always remember that "technology" doe snot equate to "machine or electronic." It means any applied technique to get a predictable result. If it is teachable and transportable, all the better -- but the basis of effective technology is predictability of outcome. Now we see new technologies used as an excuse for personal accountability and the only thing predictable is falsehood, bullying and fear.

For those raising kids today it may be impossible to curtail Social Media influence (peer pressure). But you can provide alternative technologies and support knowledge acquisition over "believed stuff."
Your cart - what donkey to you choose to attach to?
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
Dannydoyle
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I don't really think it is anything but a historic cycle. I mean isn't the average length of great civilizations about 230 years anyhow? We have sort of hit a glass ceiling.

To me De tocqueville nailed it with a few simple points. This is the big one to me.

"The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." Downhill slide since THIS happened, and boy have they discovered this.

Another lesser used quote is this one. "History is a gallery of pictures in which there are few originals and many copies." We seem to think all that is happening is new. It really isn't.

And finally an even lesser quoted excerpt. " The health of a democratic society may be measured by the quality of functions performed by private citizens." This to me is the heart of America. What private citizens do for each other without the need to be told to do so. As governments grow, this contracts. To me THAT is the downfall of society.

OK enough rambling. Sorry if this was off topic.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
rockwall
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On Jan 6, 2018, Dannydoyle wrote:
...

Another lesser used quote is this one. "History is a gallery of pictures in which there are few originals and many copies." We seem to think all that is happening is new. It really isn't.
...


Oh, I don't know. It seems like social media is relatively new. Smile
Dannydoyle
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True but gossip certainly isn't and when it is broken down isn't that all it really is?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
landmark
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I read recently that most teenagers never develop a personality - assuming they can just borrow one on FaceBook when needed for a job or marriage.

As a high school teacher, I work with hundreds of teen-agers, and I can say that whoever that author was, is greatly mistaken, even in jest.
rockwall
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On Jan 6, 2018, Dannydoyle wrote:
True but gossip certainly isn't and when it is broken down isn't that all it really is?


I find very little of social media to be 'gossip' but maybe that's just me. As an example, I mentioned in a previous post that the Magic Café is essentially social media. While there is a small amount of gossip here, I wouldn't think that it could be even remotely considered 'all it really is'.

I would say that the majority of what would be considered traditional social media is, "Look at me! Look at me!".
Dannydoyle
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Makes sense. But to say "very little" of social media is gossip is not really accurate. ENTIRE web pages are devoted to just that.

I guess in the Revolutionary war people gathered at the church or tavern. Same with Civil war. Then in WWI the radio perhaps, (I have not really checked.) and certainly WWII. Then Vietnam was the TV set. Shopping malls were popular for kids later. We moved to the computer screen. People perceive live (In America, not the world.) in this fashion sometimes. (Not always, but sometimes.) It is how kids and sometimes adults choose to interact. This is not new, just shifted.

Again the "look at me" is not a new aspect, it is simply expressed differently as generational shifts happen.

Life seems to change, but in reality I don't think so nearly as much as each generation thinks. Yes progress happens, and yes things are different and such. But the concepts are not new.

I think it is a good thing myself.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
landmark
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Life seems to change, but in reality I don't think so nearly as much as each generation thinks. Yes progress happens, and yes things are different and such. But the concepts are not new.

I agree with this. For the most part, the form of expression is new from generation to generation, but the content of what is being expressed is similar. If you look at many of the major issues of the day on ideas which we seem so polarized, we can see the same issues coming up again and again with similar poles being represented.
funsway
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Somewhere in the "progress" is the loss/denial of personal accountability. Now the object seems to be to find someone to blame,
and one can always find a like-minded stranger on the Internet. People tend to believe their own press-clippings. In this cycle that may be fatal.

I will admit, landmark, that if I were still in a classroom environment I could find those striving for more ...
Finding them, and nurturing may be essential to your survival. It would be for mine.

But, I must deal with the man on the street, in the store and fixing my appliance. I hear with they say and compare it with what they say on the Internet.
Is there a difference in how various age cohorts respond to facts and engage in reasoned thought. Not necessarily better, but different.
I judge these actions and stated views against values like integrity, honesty and congruency because those have worked for me in life.
In that regard, I fail to see any benefit to me or society from social media. (all Internet communication is not social media)

good quotes offered above, danny
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
landmark
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Somewhere in the "progress" is the loss/denial of personal accountability.


History shows us that the scammers, deadbeats, and thieves have been part of human society for a very long time. Perhaps in a nuclear world, the stakes are higher. But a generational thing? No, I see no evidence that today's youngsters are any less moral than any previous generation. I think you'd need to be more specific if you have something particular in mind.
Dannydoyle
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Maybe it is easy to find individual examples of youngsters being less moral today. It might be a tough thing to actually document as a rule.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
funsway
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There is a difference between ethics and morals. The "scammers, deadbeats and thieves" may have a different ethical basis than other generations, but that does not deal with the moral base. In simplest example, does the person know it is wrong and does it anyway, or not feel it is wrong to act that way? I find many activities today to be unethical by common standards. Whether or not they violate the individual's moral code is often difficult to determine. So, I judge by observation, statements made, congruency of actions, etc. Others may use a different test.

It is my opinion that most younger folks do not have a clearly defined set of moral standards. Some of that may come form the lack of good ethical conduct by their elders. I'll try for some examples:

A man of any age steals a piel from a Church Baked Goods table. He must know this is wrong (morals) but does it anyway. However, his ethical position may be that he is starving and the purpose of the church is to help the needy. Thus, he may have no guilt over the theft.

A woman sells her Food Stamps to get cash for cigarettes. She knows this is ethically against the law, but her moral stance is that nothing wrong has occurred. She is trading one item for another and no one is harmed.

A doctor fakes Medicare charges and buys a sailboat. This is both a moral and ethical violation.

A young man sports a new t-shirt. He brags about stealing it form the place he works. He claims that since he isn't paid very much he has a right to steal form his mean boss.
I feel that he has no moral base and a warped sense of ethics. I find that sort of behavior more prevalent now than in any previous decade.

They not only have less a firmly established moral base, but flaunt their lack of ethics. I am not sure many even know what moral values are.

It is not just "youth" or "this generation" - it is this period in our social history. In my opinion most people have shoddy ethical standards.
Many proclaim they have abandoned precious moral standards in favor of greed or expediency. There is no wonder that kids do not form moral standards in the first place.

just an opinion - most people I encounter today have both less morals certainty and less ethical accountability than ever before. Is it the worst ever?
I have only seven decades of experience against which to judge. I never said, "Any previous generation." Just worse than the ones I have known.

What does that this mean? That I no longer trust ANY person to speak with candor, to follow through on a commitment or even be nice. Sad.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
NYCTwister
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I agree that there is a lower moral standard among the young, but I think it's more a manifestation of their general apathy.

They have no real faith in bootstrapping, and they've seen their parents work hard, honestly, and suffering; though not just due to outside forces, of course.

Not all, but more and more.

So many influences factor into this downward trend, but it IS a downward trend.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
landmark
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I have only seven decades of experience against which to judge. I never said, "Any previous generation." Just worse than the ones I have known.


Well I only have six and a half decades, so I guess you got me there. Smile

Seriously, You lived through Stalin, Hitler, Nixon, the ME decade, segregation, sexual discrimination, and you think morals and ethics today are fundamentally worse? Well, like you say, it's all a matter of opinion.

Quote:
What does that this mean? That I no longer trust ANY person to speak with candor, to follow through on a commitment or even be nice. Sad.


Jeez Ken, that is sad. Even if I thought that was the case with people--and I don't, not by a long shot--I would never want to live my life in such a constricted way.
NYCTwister
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I think that part of the decay is due to the lessening of emphasis on self reliance; partly due to the fact that in modern societies it's less important, and that it's taught less.

Slowly we've become a society of victims consoling victims.

When you get to that point it's easy to see how peoples morality becomes more and more situational.

Add to that the young see criminals get rich, and away with it; while those around them try to the right thing, and sometimes suffer for trying to do it.

It's just the logical consequence of the effects of a lot of wrong policies,; as well as a failure to shed traditions and replace them with new actions.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
funsway
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On Jan 8, 2018, landmark wrote:

Jeez Ken, that is sad. Even if I thought that was the case with people--and I don't, not by a long shot--I would never want to live my life in such a constricted way.



Now there is a big difference. This reality/awareness is an opening experience, giving me more reason to demonstrate the vitality of living to those wallowing in believed things.
As some have suggested, this may be a cyclical thing. I wish I were granted another 40 years to see it though.

That fact that you feel my views are "constricted" is interesting. What is constricted is any worldview based primarily on TV, Internet or cellphone chat with strangers.
When vicarious glimpses have greater importance than live, personal experience and a quest for "knowledge," it is not surprising that morals and ethics take a back seat in personal development.

What I can do each day is show with congruency that values like honesty, integrity and mirth are still essential to meaningful human interaction.
I can do magic, tell stories and wave to strangers. I can let them know that they can trust me.

(for anyone confused, performance magic is the most honest pursuit. We tell folks that we will deceive them, and then do exactly what we promise.)
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
Dannydoyle
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How do you have a cellphone chat with a stranger?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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