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landmark
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As we celebrate MLK day tomorrow, let's remember that he was a victim of disgraceful surveillance and harassment, and that the GOP and the quisling Democrats both just voted to continue to defy the Fourth Amendment and allow warrantless mass surveillance to continue.

Disgraceful.
Dannydoyle
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Well you would think a guy who was a victim of such things during his campaign would stop such things wouldn't you?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
NYCTwister
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What do you mean?
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
Jonathan Townsend
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Https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2018/01/ho......eillance

"Treason doth never prosper. What's the reason? Why if it prosper, none dare call it treason."

source: https://archive.org/stream/lettersepigra......djvu.txt
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Jan 14, 2018, NYCTwister wrote:
What do you mean?

It was sarcasm, and thinly veiled contempt.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
landmark
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A Kumbaya moment of posters here?
Dannydoyle
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I was referring to the "wiretapping of Trump Tower" thingie and how angry he was because of it. (I don't argue it did or did not happen, only that he believed it happened and it enraged him.) So since he was a victim, maybe he would stop it for everyone else.

I do after all enjoy consistency.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
NYCTwister
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On Jan 14, 2018, landmark wrote:
A Kumbaya moment of posters here?


Don't let's get crazy now,

But speaking to the spirit of Kumbaya, the conspiracy theorists say that the elites have been manipulating us in various ways for centuries, constantly promoting different "thems" for "us" to be against; while they run out the back with the loot.

Whether true or not, we do seem to spend a lot of time fighting each other.

That's why net neutrality is so important. I think that this period in history, more than most, is critical.
Our ability to communicate is greater than it's ever been, and vital.

Despite all the rancor, and maybe not in the best way, we're communicating more than ever.
People are starting to see that, despite any differences we're all in the same boat.

To me, there seems to be a certain desperation among those in charge to grab what's left of the marrow.

How's that for paranoid?
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NYCTwister
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Quote:
On Jan 14, 2018, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 14, 2018, NYCTwister wrote:
What do you mean?

It was sarcasm, and thinly veiled contempt.


So, is it contempt for the hypocrisy - or the hypocrite?
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Dannydoyle
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The hypocrisy.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Jonathan Townsend
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On Jan 15, 2018, NYCTwister wrote:
That's why net neutrality is so important. I think that this period in history, more than most, is critical.
Our ability to communicate is greater than it's ever been, and vital...


Those routers and fiber lines are property. One argument I've heard amounts to insisting any postal carrier give equal service to a parcel post package as to an overnight or courier package. Would you offer a better realworld model for network traffic?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On Jan 15, 2018, NYCTwister wrote:
...
To me, there seems to be a certain desperation among those in charge to grab what's left of the marrow.

How's that for paranoid?


https://www.washingtonpost.com/investiga......6e367546
https://www.whitehouse.gov/ondcp/

I'm good with calling such things Orwellian style intelligent design - feeding the fires of social discord - quests and causes with the best of narrow focus intentions - the work of useful idiots.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
NYCTwister
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Quote:
On Jan 15, 2018, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 15, 2018, NYCTwister wrote:
That's why net neutrality is so important. I think that this period in history, more than most, is critical.
Our ability to communicate is greater than it's ever been, and vital...


Those routers and fiber lines are property. One argument I've heard amounts to insisting any postal carrier give equal service to a parcel post package as to an overnight or courier package. Would you offer a better realworld model for network traffic?


My hope is that one or more providers will realize that it's in their best financial interest, in the long run, to do what the people want; because the people don't want this.

Unfortunately, I've hoped that all those grasping for every dollar, at the expense of those they rely on to provide those dollars, would realize that a healthy middle class is in their best interest in the long run.

So far, I've been disappointed.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On Jan 15, 2018, NYCTwister wrote:
... one or more providers will realize that it's in their best financial interest, in the long run, to do what the people want; because the people ...


1) will pay more for this?
2) more people will use the service (advertiser eyeballs?)?
3) more people could be compelled to use this if it were made part of some government service?

what's the good and for who? Blockchain and Siri are close to a value proposition ... if you want to take the "my cellphone is my trusted internet companion" road.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
landmark
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Unfortunately, I've hoped that all those grasping for every dollar, at the expense of those they rely on to provide those dollars, would realize that a healthy middle class is in their best interest in the long run.


That's a different economic system, not capitalism.

Capitalism, unfortunately, is riddled with these internal contradictions which throw it into constant crisis. Short run profit versus long term profit is one of those. Stock holders seek profit now--otherwise they will move their money elsewhere. Some firms with deep pockets (and deep credit) can weather a long start-up period; but the system as a whole cannot. As soon as too many delay profit gratification, other firms will jump into the vacuum and lure investors with more timely returns.

The other key tension we're seeing nowadays is the need for capitalists to lower the cost of labor, but at the same time they need those very same workers with enough money to demand the goods that are being produced. The big corporations are sitting on tons of surplus money that they don't know what to do with. They don't for the most part at this point plough it back into production, because there's a situation of overproduction and not enough money is in circulation for a demand to grow for their products. Their's very little correlation between profits and hiring because the hiring can only be increased if the demand is increasing. Instead, we are on the cusp of another downward spiral for workers.
NYCTwister
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1)They'll make more by providing equal access causing people to migrate to them.
Could be that they could make more anyway by selling access.
As I said "hopefully"

2)Hopefully advertisers will do the same for the same reasons.

3) God, please no.
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landmark
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Those routers and fiber lines are property. One argument I've heard amounts to insisting any postal carrier give equal service to a parcel post package as to an overnight or courier package. Would you offer a better realworld model for network traffic?


That utilities should be public. The model for digital network traffic is digital network traffic. There's no technical reason that person A should have a slower connection than person B, unlike package delivery where weight and size directly impact delivery (space on truck, number of items that can be handled per minute, weight on plane, etc.)

We don't say that Person A may have the water come out of their tap at one speed and person B may only have a slower speed.
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On Jan 15, 2018, landmark wrote:
...There's no technical reason that person A should have a slower connection than person B...


The way I heard the issue it's networks throttling advertises and content suppliers who don't pay them for ... and traffic from those who might be politically unapproved ...

For us end-user/customers - if the fiber and routers are in place - perhaps. Though they are not themselves free - nor are they maintenance free.
How many streaming 24/7 4k screens do you have there today? Water mains vs faucets - someone still pays the water bill.

I've heard some folks don't even have a physical connection but a wifi central town wireless hookup. Central point of failure or just pneumatic despotism?

Just one among many worries. Not sure there's a natural monopoly here or what would fund the resource use.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
funsway
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Neutrality? I'd be happy to have a search engine that actually searches for what I ask rather than what some marketer thinks I might want to buy.

That would be "neutral" for me. No ads pretending to be information. No right to purchase a place in the information line.
No second party offering do the search for me. Just the facts, m-am.

At least the Café' advanced search allows for an "exact phrase" option. Why isn't that the standard?

Of course, there could be another search engine with nothing but marketing ads. No facts or useful information, just products and services that sorta match your entered words.

As I think Jonathan hinted, there should be more concern over who is making decisions for you rather than the speed of getting miss-information.

Funding? I recall when people chose Cable TV because there were NO ads, and regular TV was limited to two minutes per hour ( a single minute and two 30 second)
Why does it now cost so much now? Follow the money and see which Congressman's pocket it gets into.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

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landmark
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That's why in general I think utilities should be publicly funded and regulated, and accountable to public scrutiny.

I think a very strong case could be made that the Internet is a utility.
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