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dervish New user 21 Posts |
I have a mentalism performance CHARACTER who is a paranormal science investigator who works in a lab studying unexplainable phenomenon (telekinesis, telepathy, teleportation, time travel, memory etc)
However, my fake big white wig, big bow tie, geeky glasses, labcoat etc probably decrease the believability of my skills as "real"..... since it's obvious I'm "dressing up". So that probably leads people to believe it's just a trick, not actual mind reading. However, I actually feel MORE comfortable having this character LIE about what is going on, rather than me personally (under my own name, with my own normal suit, normal hair etc) blatantly lieing about the method of the effect. I feel too unethical saying "hi I'm Geoff and I can see inside your mind. I see the letter C". I feel much better saying "hi I'm Professor Brainchild, and I've created a device that can send this $1 bill back in time". Does anyone have any thoughts on this moral ethical block? I don't think I feel comfortable with people ACTUALLY believing I am reading their mind. But this definitely diminishes the power of the effect. If I could trick them into truly believing what I'm doing is real, that would be a hugely impactful performance. How do other people deal with this ethical dilemma feeling? Thanks for your opinions, Geoff |
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MadisonH Inner circle 1752 Posts |
When people go to a performance, they EXPECT to be lied to. That’s what all theatre is. Lying for the sake of entertainment. What we do is different.
But if you’re still concerned, you ca be yourself but begin your performance by telling your audience to treat it as theatre. It can be as simple as “My job is to create the ILLUSION of mind reading. But no matter how real everything will seem on stage, just note that I am merely a performer playing the part of a mind reader.” Madison |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
Illusions a what magicians do. So your advising him to be a magician and a fake mind reader? Great advice.
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MadisonH Inner circle 1752 Posts |
Quote:
On Jan 23, 2018, Mindpro wrote: il·lu·sion iˈlo͞oZHən noun 1) a thing that is or is likely to be wrongly perceived or interpreted by the senses. "the illusion makes parallel lines seem to diverge by placing them on a zigzag-striped background" synonyms: mirage, hallucination, apparition, figment of the imagination, trick of the light, trompe l'oeil 2) a deceptive appearance or impression. "the illusion of family togetherness" synonyms: appearance, impression, semblance 3) a false idea or belief. "he had no illusions about the trouble she was in" synonyms: delusion, misapprehension, misconception, false impression No mention of magicians in the dictionary definition. In short, I’m not suggesting he do magic. I’m suggesting if he feels uncomfortable pretending for do it for real, all he has to do is tell them he will be pretending to do it for real. Many people do this. It’s called a disclaimer. This isn’t how I do it, but it’s a method that would work for his particular ethical dilemma. Personally, I just perform my show and claim to do everything I’m saying I’m doing with no disclaimer because I think the fact that it’s a performance is enough to know I’m only acting. Madison |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
Quote:
On Jan 23, 2018, MadisonH wrote: Right, fake! Deception and illusions are what magicians do whether mentioned in your definition or not. Also audiences, unfortunately, don't carry your dictionary for definitions, they are intelligent and know real from phony. |
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takeachance Inner circle 3764 Posts |
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu certainly knew Israeli mentalist Lior Suchard was fake, does that make Suchard a magician now?
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
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On Jan 23, 2018, takeachance wrote: You're reading what you want into it rather than understanding what is what is being said. Lior never tried to pass himself off as doing the "illusion" of something or anything based on deception, so in reality no. What he has to worry about is simply having failed as a mentalist in that situation (which should be a part of being a mentalist - no one should be perfect 100% of the time). He needed to have (prepared and always ready) a better way to deal with missing such as in that example. |
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George Hunter Inner circle 2013 Posts |
To the original question (but ignoring the whole persona issue), you have the option of making NO claims OR disclaimers. Just let people enjoy the performance and let them make up their own minds ab out what might be real.
George |
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Mr. Woolery Inner circle Fairbanks, AK 2149 Posts |
Some people are going to believe. No matter what you do. Some are going to insist all psychic phenomena are fake, even if they encounter something real.
The issue is that you won't perform well if you are feeling guilty the whole time. Frame it differently. Now, I don't know what tricks you are comfortable with, but let's assume you have a deck of cards (yeah, I know, get over it - it is just an example). You will shortly have them select a card and you will somehow know what card it is. How is not germane. Option 1 - "I am going to read your mind. Pick out a card, keep it to yourself. Concentrate on the card... It is red... A heart... A spot card... The 3 of Hearts!" Option 2 - "Poker players often talk about reading 'tells' - that is picking up on nonverbal cues that indicate the emotional state of the other players. Some players get so good that it looks like real telepathy if you don't know what you are looking for. Let me demonstrate, please. Select a card. Keep it to yourself. Now, think of a red wall on the right, black on your left. Aha! Your eyes twitched to the right just then! Did everyone see that? It is a little thing, but when the eyes go up and then to one side or the other, that's a pretty good tell." And so on. Option 3 - The Osterlind approach. "I can't really explain how I do this, just sometimes I know. Hmmm. You have the 2 of Hearts." Which is perhaps the most honest, as you would destroy the mystery if you really did explain, so you can't. If people want to talk to you about ESP afterward, be ready to discuss it. Know a bit about the current state of psi research and read a couple of the woo-woo books (that's not an insult, I like woo) so you can talk the language. Also know what you are going to say when they ask what you believe. "I believe we all have a greater awareness of what's going on around us than we really recognize. People who are thought to be psychic may well be super-observant, like poker players who have studied reading one-another's tells for so long that they don't have to think about it anymore. They just know. It may be that there's a great deal more to it than that, but the hyper-observation, if accurate, could account for at least a lot of apparent telepathy and some other psychic-seeming phenomena. I've deliberately studied how to develop skills that look more psychic than they really are, but I leave a lot of room for actual inspiration to create miracles." Or whatever actually describes your views and efforts without screaming "IT IS ALL TRICKERY!" Hope that's food for thought, anyway. -Patrick |
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dervish New user 21 Posts |
Thanks everyone, in particular Patrick who really laid out the options very clearly. Very helpful!! I will continue to ponder / process this. Thanks!
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Mr. Woolery Inner circle Fairbanks, AK 2149 Posts |
One of Richard Webster's suggested presentations involves using the divinatory meaning of playing cards (I do tarot and playing card cartomancy, but if you don't, this isn't likely a presentation for you). You apparently pick up on traits of the person, current issues in his/her life, and from that narrow down to the card chosen. Paul Voodini does something like this with palm reading. Both of these folks seem like genuinely nice people and they both have some material that works well for the believers.
Only use it if you won't feel guilty about it, though. -Patrick |
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takeachance Inner circle 3764 Posts |
Quote:
On Jan 23, 2018, Mindpro wrote: OK, touche, that's a good answer, and you are right on the money Mindpro. |
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Raum Loyal user 227 Posts |
Lose this guilt. People believe in what they want to believe. For example you believe that your amateur performance can change someone's belief system. No, it's not. Maybe later, when you become more professional, but not now.
People that believe you can or can't read minds, developed such belief system long time ago and you only one of the dozens "proofs" to them. |
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Mysterious Mike Loyal user Chicago 258 Posts |
Quote:
On Jan 23, 2018, Mindpro wrote: Mindpro... news flash: Mentalists do “illusions” to get the job done. We are deceptive, and magicians at our core. But maybe you’re the “real deal”...
The performance is what really makes it all worth while.
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THB Regular user Brussels 177 Posts |
Quote:
On Jan 23, 2018, Mindpro wrote: So YOU do it for real? wow... |
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THB Regular user Brussels 177 Posts |
@ Dervish: you have to pick a side. or you "pretend" you're real. ( ethical dilemma), or you assume the fact that you're fake and simply want to entertain.
And once you have chosen, don't look back and enjoy the road. actually there is a third option, you actually are the real thing, in which case, just like Mindpro, no guilt... but for the common people you have to make the choice. Pretend you're real, or pretend you're a character, but you'll have to pretend something. |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9981 Posts |
Another option is to only demonstrate phenomena that is real but unusual or little known. You may claim "highly developed sensitivity" etc. for practice or knowledge - that being true.
You can be the conductor of events rather than the "doer" of events. Not suggesting this is a well=paying approach. I attempt to adapt my presentation and effect demonstration to the expectations of my audience. If they come prepared to find support for a paranormal belief/experience, they will find it no matter what I call myself or the amount of artifice involved. If they look to be fooled/puzzled in an entertaining manner they will find that. But, I also know that most observers in a group can be swayed by the reactions of those nearby, and their verbal claims rarely express what they think/feel. (opinion) if you are selling yourself as an entertainer then the only ethical consideration may be over trying to create an impression that what you do is real when you know it is fake, Each member of your audience may be more practiced at deception, illusion and outrageous lies than you. Telling the truth may be an illusion for them. I also feel that the claim of some on Café' that one cannot do both conjuring and mental based demonstrations is an illusion of their own making. If you belief in this distinction than you probably cannot do both well. If you know you can you can. How you present either phenomenon will depend on who you are. Thus, the suggestion of "ethical dilemma" is an illusion also. I am certainly not fake in anything I do. There is no restricted choice between two options offered by someone else. Consider what you know to be true in life. Make choices between. Makes choice between believed things is an illusion or phantom. I am very real in using artifice, special knowledge, psychological ploys and some skill in demonstrating something another person considers to be impossible or very difficult. I have many ethical decisions to make very day. Being concerned over whether or not some stranger perceives what I do to be real when to is trickery , or fake when it is real, is not one of them. The decision of whether or not to perform at all may be. When you watch a TV ad or a politician move their mouth do you accept that what they say is real or true? No? Then why project that any spectator will believe what you say any regardless of the truth of it?
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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innercirclewannabe Inner circle Ireland 1597 Posts |
Quote:
On Jan 23, 2018, MadisonH wrote: Nothing personal, but I think that has to rank as some of the worst advice I've read on here in years. Bad enough that he is new to performing and that in itself will show through, but to ten come out and state that none of this is real, for me, is just plain wrong.
Tá sé ach cleas má dhéanann tú sé cuma mhaith ar cheann.
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innercirclewannabe Inner circle Ireland 1597 Posts |
By the way, I know you come from a theatrical background, but I can't agree with your simplistic assessment of all theatre. i.e. - 'people expect to be lied to''. What about all of the nuances attached to a great script or the wonderful acting that forms part of any great performance. Surely that is much bigger thatn paying for a ticket in the expectation that the preformer will just 'lie to you'. I just don't see art as one dimensional as that.
Tá sé ach cleas má dhéanann tú sé cuma mhaith ar cheann.
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
There has been some great insight offered here. As I say, there is much to being a mentalist and it starts with creating the right foundation as everything is built upon this. Then once this is created every layer and component comes directly from this. That's why I said earlier, learning true mentalism (the entire foundation, not just the effects, takes time, and understanding, then comes the proper packaging and selling of it if you are wanting to perform for pay. People can't stand being duped or played, so whatever you decide you will have to be consistent. Not all mentalists are the same based on these determined commitments. For example, as much as some love it, I could never bend silverware or keys, as it is not congruent with my predetermined foundation.
No, not all mentalists are magicians mysterious Mike, only those that come to mentalism through magic even have this concern. Those that are mentalists that did not come through magic don't ever have this concern or issues in any way. Again, it depends on your foundation. This is what used to frustrate Bob Cassidy here so much and why he left Penny. Everyone here only wanted to take the parts they wanted from him, and not hear the entire message - the totality of mentalism. It was very frustrating to him. Different foundations positions and the depth of understanding of mentlaism will create different positioning, responses and beliefs from an audience. Yes, I prefer to only work with mentalists that are real. When my agencies get calls for myself or other mentalists we represent, they are seeking the real thing - not a magician doing mental tricks, pretendig to be a mentalist. We regularly get calls from prospects that say "we are looking for something different - we've had a comedian, DJ, and magicians before, but we would like a mentalist or mind reader" or " We booked a mentalist last year, but they ended up just being a magicians that tried to make us believe he was doing mentalism". People (audiences and bookers) definitions and expectation of mentalism is differnet than those here in the magic community. If you want to perform publicly for pay, this is just as important to understand as any effects. If you are just a hobbyist or enthusiast, this may not matter, but anything more than that, it comes into play. Again, it must be approached in complete honesty. The character you described will be a hard sell to most audiences. It seems gimmicky and non-commital. When people are spending their hard-earned money (on booking you, or admission to see you perform) there is an entirely different set of principles and expectations that are present and that comes into play. Yes, there is plenty of mentalism you can do for real without guilt. Again, it requires study and education, skills and practice. The point is, as I said in the first post, it is not a fast understanding and process. Just at it's most basic of foundational aspects magic and mentalism are 100% complete opposite. Magic is foolery, trickery, deception, deceit, illusion. People KNOW it is not real, they approach it with this definite knowledge and understanding, that they will be lead by there elements and that is what the performance is based on. Mentalism is completely opposite. Audiences want to believe it is real, possible, plausible. Everyone has seen magic, but few have truly experienced the unique and rare mentalist, Expectations are very different from the very beginning. There is responsibility, expectation and understanding required. Far more than just "tricks" as you mention. Many have felt their own possible psychic abilities, they may have experienced Deja Vu or had a psychic moment. This makes it all very plausible, possible and real for them. The foundational perspective is that of belief or possibility. Far diferent than magic. So many approach mentalism as just tricks to be learned and a character to perform them. Again, this is magician's thinking and how magician's approach mentalism. Mentalism is not self-working. That's why I said originally, you have to decide which you want to be. And btw, anyone that tried to tell you that it doesn't matter and that it is just about "entertaining the audience", is likely a magician and never experienced true hard-hitting, mentalism. Btw, there is nothing wroong with if you chose to prefer to be a magician doing mental tricks, just don't fool yourself or even worse your audience that you are a mentalist. |
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