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NYCTwister
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Don't be ridiculous.

Politicians who fight wars so that weapons manufacturers get rich.

Despots who rule by force.

Like that.

As I said, take your pick.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
NYCTwister
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Quote:
On Apr 12, 2018, magicfish wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 12, 2018, NYCTwister wrote:
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On Apr 12, 2018, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
That's part of the dialogue going back at least to Hobbes' Leviathan. Citizen means...what?


Most wouldn't care if the Leviathan was benevolent; but what are the odds, if it has more then two heads.
Are we inherently self destructive?

It's more a matter of what being a citizen should mean, but still doesn't. Citizen ultimately meaning citizen of the "world".

If all are inherently equal - what are you entitled to for being born?

...more THAN two heads...
Sorry. See latest post in sticky thread above to see why I couldn't help myself.
Carry on.


Lol.
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NYCTwister
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On Apr 12, 2018, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 12, 2018, NYCTwister wrote:
By what criteria?


1) What makes life livable? Survival...and then? We still haven't figured out even the survival part yet: food, clothing, shelter, health.
2) What is possible?


I think we've gotten a handle on survival. Walmart supposedly throws away enough food to feed all the hungry, and if you want to get hyperbolic, then the mythical Rothschild fortune is said to be enough to clothe, feed, and shelter everyone on the planet.

What is possible is a good question, but I'm talking about what we are inherently due.
For me it comes down to a true equalization of opportunity - a fair chance. A society has to have a mechanism that acknowledges ability, as well as one that prevents those with more from skewing the curve.

You get your life, and air. The rest you've got to earn.

Otherwise you get what we've got.
On one extreme there are those that believe that because they don't have, it should be given BECAUSE they need; and on the other there are those that believe that they have the right to take because they CAN.

That center can not hold.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On Apr 13, 2018, NYCTwister wrote:
...
That center can not hold.


Add some externalities/imperfect information choices - run the game simulations about strategy...

for starters: look at the Monty Hall problem in context.
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landmark
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I think we've gotten a handle on survival. Walmart supposedly throws away enough food to feed all the hungry, and if you want to get hyperbolic, then the mythical Rothschild fortune is said to be enough to clothe, feed, and shelter everyone on the planet.


Then why do people die starving? Why do people die of diseases that have cures? The Walmart evidence shows what is possible--not what is. We have a handle on survival for a small minority of the world's population. For the rest of us, not so much.

Quote:
You get your life, and air. The rest you've got to earn.


Why? Who said so? From both sides...why not more, why not less?

In my opinion it's the arbitrary (and highly sponsored) belief in the second quote that makes the promise of the first quote so difficult to achieve.
Dannydoyle
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Nobody will ever unite the world in Utopia.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
landmark
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The cure for polio was Utopia seventy-five years ago. We don't know what is or is not possible.
Dannydoyle
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No it wasn't. It was science.

And look at those who don't want to immunize.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On Apr 13, 2018, landmark wrote:
...Then why do people die starving? Why do people die of diseases that have cures?...


Ask their local governments.
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Jonathan Townsend
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On Apr 13, 2018, Dannydoyle wrote:
...And look at those who don't want to immunize.


Some folks demand a right to have an opinion - and a right to be forgotten - as convenient
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Dannydoyle
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Which is a major stumbling block to Utopia. Some people juat want independence. Go figure.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
landmark
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On Apr 13, 2018, Dannydoyle wrote:
No it wasn't. It was science.


"Science" is a societal activity. The Greeks told of Icarus and warned against hubristic Utopian notions of flight.
The Wright brothers, building on earlier pioneers' work, invented what was unthinkable to the Greeks.

As for your point about independence, 1) without food, clothing, shelter, and health, there is *no* independence; 2) the notions of independence and food, shelter, clothing, and health are not somehow mutually exclusive. We don't have to choose between the two. Those who want to take away both like to pretend as if they are offering independence in lieu of the other needs. What's Utopian is to think that a system where 1% have vast wealth, resources, and power over the other 99%, offers independence.
Dannydoyle
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The perfect is the enemy of the great. Keep pining away for your Utopia. I'd that is what works for you have fun.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On Apr 13, 2018, landmark wrote:
... The Greeks told of Icarus and warned against hubristic Utopian notions of flight...

Don't stray from the path. Not too close to the water lest the feathers get soaked. Nor too close to the sun lest the wax melt.
The guy who crafted the wings, Daedalus, made the flight safely.
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Jonathan Townsend
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Friday the thirteenth, 2018... 9PM EST Smile
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NYCTwister
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Quote:
On Apr 13, 2018, landmark wrote:
Quote:
I think we've gotten a handle on survival. Walmart supposedly throws away enough food to feed all the hungry, and if you want to get hyperbolic, then the mythical Rothschild fortune is said to be enough to clothe, feed, and shelter everyone on the planet.


Then why do people die starving? Why do people die of diseases that have cures? The Walmart evidence shows what is possible--not what is. We have a handle on survival for a small minority of the world's population. For the rest of us, not so much.


Crony capitalism.

I brought up the Walmart example to show that we do have enough, so it's a "problem of distribution".

One way is to say that since Walmart has what the others need, that the right thing to do is for Walmart to give it to them.

Quote:
You get your life, and air. The rest you've got to earn.


Quote:
Why? Who said so? From both sides...why not more, why not less?


Because that's all you DO get.
Why more? Both sides can demand whatever they want, but that doesn't mean they are owed it.

My question about what you're owed for being born was about any human the moment after birth.
What is THAT being owed by life?

The moment after that the circumstances of their reality will kick in of course, but before, what do they have the right to demand life give them?

Quote:
In my opinion it's the arbitrary (and highly sponsored) belief in the second quote that makes the promise of the first quote so difficult to achieve.


Not at all.

We have enough, we just use it stupidly. We don't HAVE to continue to do so.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On Apr 13, 2018, NYCTwister wrote:
...
Crony capitalism...


He who has the gold (and can keep it) makes the rules?
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magicfish
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Quote:
On Apr 13, 2018, NYCTwister wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 12, 2018, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 12, 2018, NYCTwister wrote:
By what criteria?


1) What makes life livable? Survival...and then? We still haven't figured out even the survival part yet: food, clothing, shelter, health.
2) What is possible?


I think we've gotten a handle on survival. Walmart supposedly throws away enough food to feed all the hungry, and if you want to get hyperbolic, then the mythical Rothschild fortune is said to be enough to clothe, feed, and shelter everyone on the planet.

What is possible is a good question, but I'm talking about what we are inherently due.
For me it comes down to a true equalization of opportunity - a fair chance. A society has to have a mechanism that acknowledges ability, as well as one that prevents those with more from skewing the curve.

You get your life, and air. The rest you've got to earn.

Otherwise you get what we've got.
On one extreme there are those that believe that because they don't have, it should be given BECAUSE they need; and on the other there are those that believe that they have the right to take because they CAN.

That center can not hold.

Mythical is the key word here.
magicfish
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On Apr 13, 2018, NYCTwister wrote:
Don't be ridiculous.

Politicians who fight wars so that weapons manufacturers get rich.

Despots who rule by force.

Like that.

As I said, take your pick.

Still waiting. Are we talking currently?
I'm thinking Pol Pot or Mugabe but It certainly wasn't making weapons manufacturers rich. I'm stumped. Please help.
landmark
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We have enough, we just use it stupidly. We don't HAVE to continue to do so.


NYC, it's clear that we are in much agreement here, and it may be that we are just talking past each other.

But I have a problem with statements like "the rest you have to earn." What you call "crony capitalism"--i.e. capitalism--loves to make statements like that. As if a rich full life for all in society is taboo to ask for. It's a remnant of Calvinism.

We do not get born into a vacuum; no one could not survive if he or she did. We get born into a pre-existing society which makes rules and decisions about what will happen to the newborns.
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