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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The spooky, the mysterious...the bizarre! » » Am I the only one bothered by Vic's latest acquisitions? (81 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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weepinwil
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I received an e-mail from Gemini Artifacts today saying they have acquired the rights of:
Carnie Tarot
Carnie Cursed Tarot
Dark Dawn Tarot
Four Corners Tarot
Hobbs Alphabet Deck
Homicide Trilogy (US/UK)
Kioku
Sanctum II
Sanctum 4
Witches Almanac
Le Petite Flour Tarot
Room Service 1943
Room Service 1944
Reflections

I have a problem with this for a few reasons:

First, some of these were bought as limited editions of only 150 copies and a reprint will violate these original conditions of purchase.

Second, how were these acquired? To my knowledge Rick does not have the rights to sell the artwork of others who originally drew some of these effects. Where else could the deal have been done? As much problem as we have had with Rick, I hope Vic isn't dealing with him. And, doubt he has the rights to the artwork acquired.

Third, this seems a bit underhanded to me and not what I expected of Gemini Artifacts or Vic. How can you acquire an artist's work without the artist's consent? I would like an explanation as to how this is ethical, even if legal.

I have sent my concerns by e-mail to Vic and maybe he will answer these concerns. Perhaps it doesn't concern others. but this announcement concerns me as a collector of these items. He says he will not release any of the limited editions; then why list them as an acquisition?

Weepin' Willie
"Til Death us do part!" - Weepin Willie
Winks
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No, you are not the only one. I am bothered too and for the same reasons.
the Sponge
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Quote:
On Apr 6, 2018, weepinwil wrote:
He says he will not release any of the limited editions; then why list them as an acquisition?

Weepin' Willie

So Outlaw can't?
So people won't buy from Outlaw?
weepinwil
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Quote:
On Apr 6, 2018, the Sponge wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 6, 2018, weepinwil wrote:
He says he will not release any of the limited editions; then why list them as an acquisition?

Weepin' Willie

So Outlaw can't?
So people won't buy from Outlaw?


Right!
"Til Death us do part!" - Weepin Willie
weepinwil
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Heard from Vic, basically it isn't any of my business, but he did try to explain, although a bit sarcastic and defensive. Said I was the only e-mail that wasn't congratulatory. If that is the case, I am a bit disenchanted with my spookie friends. As an ignorant and foolish woman once said, "Everyone has to sit on their own pot!" I have done that and unsubscribed from the Gemini Artifact website. Very disappointed. Wish Vic the best in his new acquisitions but not going to be a participant. However, if the original artist can benefit from the agreement than I am for that.
"Til Death us do part!" - Weepin Willie
R. Steiner
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Hi Willie,
I do understand your frustration, but it would seem to me your frustration should lie exclusively with Outlaw. Outlaw is the one who said the editions would be limited. Would that transfer over to a new holder of the rights to release them? I am not certain. I know I purchased a set of the full Carnie deck from Outlaw about 18 months ago and the COA was an absurdly low number - mid-teens, if I recall. It may well be that Rick was in his integrity with the sale of the rights (assuming there was some financial transaction - of which I have no clue and this is pure speculation) and Vic agreed to not release more than a specific number to honor Rick's original 'collector's item' pieces.
Even if Vic were to release many more of the pieces that were Outlaw collector's pieces, it may well be within his right to do so.
I am sorry you feel like this is not an upright act. Vic has shown himself to be an individual of integrity within our community.
Peace to you,
RS
weepinwil
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[quote]On Apr 6, 2018, R. Steiner wrote:
Hi Willie,
I do understand your frustration, but it would seem to me your frustration should lie exclusively with Outlaw. Outlaw is the one who said the editions would be limited. Would that transfer over to a new holder of the rights to release them? I am not certain. I know I purchased a set of the full Carnie deck from Outlaw about 18 months ago and the COA was an absurdly low number - mid-teens, if I recall. It may well be that Rick was in his integrity with the sale of the rights (assuming there was some financial transaction - of which I have no clue and this is pure speculation) and Vic agreed to not release more than a specific number to honor Rick's original 'collector's item' pieces.
Even if Vic were to release many more of the pieces that were Outlaw collector's pieces, it may well be within his right to do so.
I am sorry you feel like this is not an upright act. Vic has shown himself to be an individual of integrity within our community.
Peace to you,
RS [/quote

So begins the rationalization.
"Til Death us do part!" - Weepin Willie
Wizard of Oz
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For whatever it's worth, I now see none of the aforementioned props offered on Outlaw Effects' website.
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
Vic Nadata
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Willie, I feel I explained to you personally and privately my thoughts on the limited edition items. I don't know how more clear I could have been. I told you I would not release any limited editions. I also explained why I listed them on the newsletter as well.

But for all others, here it is.

I will NOT. repeat NOT release any limited items. There will not be 100 more dark dawn floating around. What is out is out. PERIOD.

So why purchase them? The Sponge hit the nail on the head. So not another person would be scammed or ripped off. Those items are removed from the Outlaw site and there is no way to purchase them. Will some of the items listed be coming? Of course. Some of the ones I purchased were my own creations. But as I have stated earlier, the limited edition items will NOT be re-released.

I hope that clears up some confusion.
Winks
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Thanks, Vic, That was my concern, and you answered it.
Wizard of Oz
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Thanks Vic. Not sure of the wrangling that's happening on your end to make these arduous changes, but the hard work should benefit all in the end...ensuring limited items remain limited, and props with potential keep their potential. Not a bad way to end up.
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
Caveman
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Willie, I had the same concerns, as I'm a collector too. When I saw the DDT on the list I freaked out a little, and was going to write Gemini until I thought maybe the Café would have all my questions answered. Sure enough....thanks Vic for putting up that explanation, it's all I needed to hear. And, for the record, I'm psyched that some of the non limited release items will live on.
Pasteboard Alchemist
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It’s a shame that got cleared up so fast. I was looking forward to more wild, uninformed, baseless accusations.
Bogbadger
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Sorted within 6 hours, typical bl***y Gemini customer service from Vic! What's the world coming to when people go out of their way to do the right thing, then answer questions succinctly and quickly and stop the good folk of the Magic Café Forum having an excuse to rant on about something for twelve months!

(note: the above is an attempt at sarcastic humour and not intended to be taken as a serious complaint under any circumstances)

Well done Vic for getting these items into your safe hands. This must have taken a lot of hard work and I am sure is very much appreciated by the vast majority of those who have followed the trials and tribulations of Outlaw over the years.
The average man is not hard to mystify. - Howard Thurston
Pascal974
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Which items, besides DDT, were limited editions and therefore will not be released by Gemini Artifacts ?
PROF BC
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What some may not realize, and Vic is far too modest to expand upon, is that Vic did a lot of the heavy lifting for Outlaw. When he says that a lot of these items were his own creations, he's revealing only the tip of the iceberg. At least since the time of LUNA, Vic has been doing yeoman's service behind the scenes. If Outlaw needed art work done--Vic did it. Who was keeping up the Outlaw website when Outlaw itself couldn't or wouldn't? Vic again. Who was working behind the scenes for years trying to keep the Outlaw ship afloat? That was Vic. Vic believed in the product for a very *very* long time after it became clear that the business was not being properly run.

I cut all ties with Outlaw and jumped to Lebanon (blessed Lebanon!), but Vic--who has a stronger, purer belief in humanity than I--continued buying RR's excuses and stayed on board, frantically bailing Outlaw's foundering ship, hoping he could keep it afloat while RR kept promising to get it into the shipyard for repairs. He invented, designed, built, and worked into many late nights and over uncounted weekends because he believed in keeping a going concern going. In his decent and good heart he refused to believe that RR could be doing many of the things that it now comes to light he was doing. Never mind Vic himself was almost never compensated for his own work during this time. If you have been cheated by Outlaw, Vic was hit too--hard and often--usually because he was told that he was helping the other Outlaw customers (you) by not taking product/payment for his own work 'while Outlaw found its feet again'. Vic bought high-end items that he still has not received. Vic put in hundreds (if not thousands) of hours for which he was promised compensation that never came, refusing to believe that RR could cheat him or anyone else. RR simply had a custom-made line of guff for Vic, and it played into Vic's desire to assist the community and help the business.

I spent I do not know how many sessions trying to convince Vic to get away from Outlaw, that it would only bring him down, but Vic persisted long after anyone else would--or did. Why? Vic truly believes in this community and genuinely supports the Outlaw product line (not the Outlaw business model). It took a lot for Vic to step away and start Gemini--a lot of heartache to realize that someone could treat him the way RR had, and a huge amount of gumption and personal capital as well.

I was therefore deeply sorry to see an attack leveled against him on this. If you only knew how hard Vic fought--is still fighting--to make Gemini what Outlaw should have been, to wrest LUNA from Outlaw (Vic is more responsible than anyone for LUNA ever being produced as a trilogy--though I like to take my little bows for helping out with LUNA, Vic was the moving force behind getting the original trilogy put together and out there). Buying up/out this Outlaw stock is just another step in Vic's years-long attempt to rescue what was good about Outlaw whilst cutting away the putrid parts of a blameworthy, fetid business practice.

Vic is about the last person I know who would stab a fellow in the back, cheat a customer, or even disappoint a fellow being. There is, in fact, so much good in him that, for years, he found it nearly impossible to see the bad in RR.

Please accept my apology if I seem to condescend or rebuke; such is not my intention, but I will not, cannot, sit by and watch a good man criticized or cast into suspicious light for actions that should be winning him thanks and congratulations.

He is saving some things you treasure at a not-insignificant personal cost to himself. How about showing some love for that?

Thank you, Vic. I appreciate it--and you.

BC
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Bogbadger
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Well spoken Prof B.C.

I for one will be clicking the PayPal button to support Vic and purchase more high quality, beautifully crafted effects from Gemini until hell freezes over (or my wife finds my credit card bill)
The average man is not hard to mystify. - Howard Thurston
weepinwil
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Professor BC,

I had asked the moderators to remove this post because I knew what was going to happen. You question something and you are the bad guy. The mods haven't done so at this time.
"Til Death us do part!" - Weepin Willie
PROF BC
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You are not the bad guy, Wils. You have a legitimate question and concern. I have insider background knowledge relevant to the issue and am very happy finally to have the opportunity to tell this community what a fine human being we have in Vic Nadata.

BC
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topherhester
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I could care less about limited editions of things. I’m a performer. Not a collector. And a limited edition of something like the dark dawn tarot (maybe I’m still bitter bc They sold out before I was in the bizarre game) is only valuable to a fellow bizarre performer which really limits the value in my opinion. We do such a niche thing, the laymen aren’t going to care or know if somethings limited edition with a COA. Tarot cards are tarot cards to an outsider. Now would I love to have a dark dawn tarot or carnie? For performing sake, yes, bc they look great but I think the argument of “don’t do more bc it will make the ones I own less valuable” is a little unreasonable. Will 100 more really make your copy insignificant? Just my opinion. Are we hoarders of limited items or performers? I’d rather be a performer. I don’t care if some other people in this genre have a few of the same effects. Bizarre performers are so rare in an already small performing art that I doubt I’ll cross paths with a spectator who says “oh the magician last night had that book” when I bring out Or@culum or something.

I would much rather someone like Gemini Artificacts and Vic have the rights and continue to produce items reliably, ethically, and consistently. I was almost burned by Rick, had Tim wisseman not circumvented Rick and overnighted me a Hobbs box the day before a show. And I know Vic had a hand in the success of those items originally so this isn’t a pulling of the rug from under outlaw. I consider this as outlaw has cut ties with Rick...
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