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The Magic Cafe Forum Index Ľ Ľ The spooky, the mysterious...the bizarre! Ľ Ľ Am I the only one bothered by Vic's latest acquisitions? (76 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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topherhester
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And now that I know dark dawn tarot isnít one on the list being remade, someone sell me a reasonably priced copy! (That was the one I was most excited about when I got the email...)

Oh well. Maybe GA will still produce le Petite Flour, RS44, Hobbs alphabet, WA, and Carnie tarot which are all on my list.
Pizpor
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I'm not sure why anyone would be upset with GA for taking the high road on this issue. I cut ties with outlaw a long time ago and always look forward to the news from GA and Lebanon.But like topherhester articulated, the collector value is a minor issue for me as well. In fact, there are several items I truly wish were available beyond the limited edition because I am concerned about eventually wearing them out and needing to replace them due to normal wear and tear. I don't know what I'd do if someone ever tore or broke an item by accident or my luggage got lost. They are irreplaceable, by design. That can be a good and a bad thing. I for one want to thank Vic for his efforts.
topherhester
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Good point pizpor! I hate buying something that Iím afraid to use in performance for fear of wearing out or breaking.
atouchofmagic1
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Quote:
On Apr 7, 2018, topherhester wrote:
I could care less about limited editions of things. Iím a performer. Not a collector.


I have to agree here, as someone who was always fascinated by this genre of the art but didn't get into it until recently it sucks knowing I missed out on certain items. I understand from a collectors standpoint of wanting something exclusive but what does that matter to an audience? As someone who was able to get a copy of the new updated Lun@ I honestly didn't care about the COA or the fact its a limited edition I care about the effect and story that can be told.

I applaud Vic for his customer service and doing business the way he does. RR on the other hand promised me the world as long as I sent money via Friends and Family.

Just my 2 cents.


-Bob
atouchofmagic1
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Just to clarify on my above post. This was in regards to the Lun@ trilogy and a copy of Ash. RR gave offered me a substantial deal but only if I paid via F&F which I declined. When Vic came out with the new edition I jumped on board and was very satisfied. Now just to hunt down a copy of Ash 😏
Pizpor
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Maybe some of these items could be released in a Collectors as well as a Performers edition. Just a thought.
Philemon Vanderbeck
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The prices alone are going to make these limited editions, when you think about it.
Professor Philemon Vanderbeck
That Creepy Magician
"I use my sixth sense to create the illusion of possessing the other five."
Wizard of Oz
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Quote:
On Apr 7, 2018, Pizpor wrote:
Maybe some of these items could be released in a Collectors as well as a Performers edition. Just a thought.


Pizpor is right, and it's my thought as well. There have been many releases of mainstream magic props in the past, as well as bizarre items as well, which cater to the collector. These may take the shape of special packages, finishes, added routines, added effects...the list goes on. It's not a new idea, but it works. However, these limited editions - when they have a partner product also for sale at a more reasonable, worker-friendly price - are the perfect offering for collectors and performers.
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
Pascal974
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Quote:
On Apr 8, 2018, Wizard of Oz wrote:

However, these limited editions - when they have a partner product also for sale at a more reasonable, worker-friendly price - are the perfect offering for collectors and performers.


I fully agree with you.
Furthermore, less than two years ago, I bought DDT and FCT, and I felt that the quality of the cards I received was not great, the drawings on some cards were barely visible. It was not quite what I expected, far from the beauty of the pictures found here and there and far from the quality of the CT bought some years before and received in a box with a COA.
So, the idea of having these items produced by someone like Vic appealed to me.
Vic Nadata
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Without going into the details, when I acquired the items, it was part of a large package deal. Properties were being taken in and out of the deal all the time. The final list is what you see. These are others that I have received over the past year as well. Spiritas, Forever Doll and DeadWood to name a few. These items were to cover Outlaws personal debts. I accepted the deal, and here we are today.

Two of the items I thought were limited. DDT and Four Corners. So in my mind these were not really a viable product to release. I knew this from the start. I of course asked Outlaw to confirm that they were his properties to sell, and he did. My thought at the time was that I knew I would not release decks. I, like most of you, have a set with a COA that I value. My goal was never to take away from what WE have but to add to it. A box or something small perhaps.

I have talked with Cody S about this and he confirmed as I feared that it was not Outlaws to sell. Same with four corners. In short Gemini will not produce any extras for these sets. They are rightfully in the hands of the correct owner and off the Outlaw website and not for sale. It might have cost me a few $$, but I call that a win in my book. Cody S. got totally ripped off in his past deals. We might be releasing the Four Corners as that was not a limited edition. It is totally up to Cody as to what he wants to do with his property.

The other limited edition I recently just found out about was a Carnie Elite deck. I did not even know that existed. That was limited to 150 units. Who really knows and can trust what the COA says on those, but to be fair those wont come out as well. The standard Carnie (Majors) will be coming out.

I did make a mistake with the newsletter. My goal was to make more of a public service announcement. Epic failure on my part. I see a lot of new guys joining the ranks that simply do not know the history that most of us already do. I wanted those guys to know where they could possibly get some items, but more importantly where they CANT get them. One of the major parts of the deal was that they needed to be removed from the Outlaw website. I had to do this personally. So for that I do apologize.

I hope that clears up some confusion.

Thanks for your continued support for Gemini Artifacts
greerj
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I totally understood Will's and others concerns about re-releasing limited editions, and also understand and appreciate Vic's take on the subject. I am glad this was cleared up. It sounds like Gemini is doing the right thing and growing in leaps and bounds. Thank you Vic for your explanation and I'm sure we all look forward to seeing what the future holds for Gemini and the bizarre community.
RCP
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Ha ha ha, really? 150 limited releases of what? paper cards? books? in a world of 7 billion people a bit of pompousness and show over what? Vic release what you want and when you want, I think another 150 copies want have any meaningful effect and does what rick said hold any power over anyone? Since most of ricks'works belonged to someone else the creators should determine what happens to their creations.
RCP
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Not to beat a dead horse but does anyone really think any cards outlaw put out is collectible? I could produce a 1000 sets tonight and sell them on ebay with a fake coa. There are millions of dollars of fake baseball card. Please don't think any outlaw card is a valued collectible...................
Pizpor
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Thatís exactly how the Chinese view magic dvds. Rip them off and sell them cheap on EBay. A fantastic disincentive for creative people.
RCP
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Quote:
On Apr 9, 2018, Pizpor wrote:
Thatís exactly how the Chinese view magic dvds. Rip them off and sell them cheap on EBay. A fantastic disincentive for creative people.

It's the view of anyone that deals in counterfeit products. They could careless about creative incentive. Knowing Ricks past he probably sold more copies than advertised anyway.

I will accept whatever Vic and his creators decide to do with their creations. The argument that it decreases the value of anthers purchase doesn't fit this situation.
Pizpor
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Iím not sure about that. The thing that decreases the value of something is an abundant supply. So when you advocate for Vic to produce as many copies as he wants, then the value declines. And Iím not trying to say that any of the Outlaw products are collectibles. But none the less, a limited supply means the item will hold value. Take Dopps for example. They routinely go for about double the original list price. I donít deal with counterfeit products, so I canít appreciate your point of view. I try very hard to support artists and their work. Iím sure others here share that point of view.
Delimbeau
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RCP
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Dopps or one of ricks cards? No comparison in workmanship, effort, difficulty in counterfeiting or resale value. Rick made the promise not Vic or Cody or whoever else created the product. The reality is what you bought from rick is a counterfeit because he stole them from the creators and never paid them for their work.

Your beef is with Rick and not them.

I am glad you don't deal in counterfeit products knowingly but I bet you unknowingly have bought them and will again.
Sir
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I believe there is more to it than just limiting the number of effects produced. A businessman gives his word and that should factor heavily into the equation. Sure, some folks are just trick collectors (nothing wrong with that), but others buy effects as an investment in their business. They are making the choice to purchase from a certain vendor because that vendor can offer the added value of exclusivity. A breech of that agreement is serious.

Vic made a financial move in an attempt to preserve the exclusivity of some effects. Seems of all the possible outcomes, this was a pretty decent way to go.
"By the pricking of my thumbs, something wicked this way comes."
Christopher Gould
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I just want to throw my hat into the ring here.

Since moving Alchemy Moon over to Vic's expert care, I can testify directly that he simply has more integrity than anyone else I have met or had dealings with in magic. That this should come into question is frankly 'bizarre'.

I have been aware from some years now just how much one bad apple can taint the whole crop. Every order that I sent out (to customers that were not regulars) was accompanied by a high level of anxiety. People here have been so accustomed to being treated badly, and many have wittingly, or unwittingly supported these practices. In the end the sewer door burst open and the dealers that *really* do not deserve to be questioned get in the firing line.

Now is a time for cleansing and frankly, Vic is the guy with the bucket and mop. I talk to Vic frequently, and I know first hand what his motivations are here, and these motivations are of the highest order. This clean up operation is costing him serious money and what he is doing for the community here is frankly as generous as it is remarkable.

It is now time to put our house into order. As things stand at the moment, the 'troubling' dealers have reaped the rewards for their appalling business models. We are (as far as I can see) left with a situation that we have not had for any years: Honest dealers and honest creators. This is something that we should nurture, not attempt to bring into disrepute.

I totally understand the legacy that come with 'limited editions'. I am guilty of producing these myself (out of exhaustion, rather than as a sales ploy). But this is not as black and white as it may first seem - how much trust did people *really* put into this concept when applied to certain dealers anyhow? If an intellectual property is bought from one dealer (who may have *said* that it was a limited edition) and is now held by another, how does this change the situation? If you buy an intellectual property, you then own it and (as far as I understand) are free to do as you wish with it - regardless of any promises made by the previous vendor. In a broader context - does the very concept of 'limited editions' positively or negatively impact the art in the long term? There are valid arguments to be made from both angles.

As to Vic's handling of the original creators - man, how is there even a question about this? I handed Sanctum over to RR (a story as long as it is uninteresting) many years ago. The first thing Vic did was contact me to GIVE me the IP back - remember, an IP that I did not even own in the first place. So, I will be working on something I have held back on for many, many years - a final Sanctum. I really hope that Vic makes some cash on this. *This* will be the way that all creators that were caught in the mess with Outlaw will now be feeling. Does anyone here suppose for a single moment that any of these creators will feel anything other than relief that someone with such an impeccable reputation will now be handling affairs?

There is a hatchet to be buried here; one that was not forged by any of the dealers who are currently in operation. I would like to see everyone cut Vic some slack here - I know directly how much this cost (and I am not talking just money here!) and I think we should all be a little lenient with this investment. It is also a time to bury the past and look to the future. It is my sincere hope that all those who have been wronged in the past find a legal settlement to their disputes. Then it is time to move on - time to once again celebrate the creative minds and good business practices that are now the norm, rather than the exception.

[Disclaimer - Vic has no idea that I am writing this, or what the content is - I speak for myself and (I would hope) for all creators and members of community who want to see us now move forward.]
The Moon is now to be found in the constellation of Gemini:
https://www.geminiartifacts.com
The Magic Cafe Forum Index Ľ Ľ The spooky, the mysterious...the bizarre! Ľ Ľ Am I the only one bothered by Vic's latest acquisitions? (76 Likes)
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