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espmagic
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"I disagree. A good magic show encourages interest in magic. Every exposure show I've seen belittles magic, and basically says,
"it's just a stupid trick, and you were stupid for being fooled by it." To me,that does anything but increase interest in magic."

But does ANYONE *really* believe that we are doing magic? I have seen exposures that are self-congratulatory, basically saying that
"...you won't get fooled NOW that you know the secret..." Do our audiences believe in Magic (with a capital "M") or do they think that we are simply more clever than they are, because we "tricked" them (hence the term "magic trick") and they don't know how...

I want to post this as a new thread: do your (or my) audiences believe that they are seeing real magic, or is it "just" an entertaining (hopefully) trick, to amuze and delight?
Saydean
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I, at first was really mad when the Masked Guy did his shows, but after thinking about it I changed my mind. If you're doing illusions all the time his exposure made me think outside of the Box type theory of magic.

In other words I was challenged to come up with new ways to do things and it was good for our show, I'm not in favor of total exposure, but if you think about it, anyone can buy a book or a set of plans or talk to someone who dosen't value their magic and get all the answers they want.

We now parody the Masked magician and the way he delivers his lines. Everytime I do it on stage I can hear the Girls (all four of them) backstage laughing even though I've done it a thousand times, you know when he gets all dramatic and looks into the camera and says: "Seems imposible? Not really!" It seems to me all he did was commit vocational suicide.

People will forget and those that remember.. well God bless em!
magiker
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I have only seen a couple of the masked magician and that was with non magish friends. they thought that some of the explainations were laughable and insulted their intelligence.

On one of the early Penn and Teller shows they told people that if they wanted to scare a magish then to say to him card force (although as it was a few yrs ago may not be exact). Next day I was performing, two young lads came up to me and said "card force". I asked them what it was as I had never heard of it. They went away disappointed.
Magiker

Believe in the possibility of the impossible
htmagic
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Tennessee
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Card Force: A game played by Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker! Smile

When I first started practicing magic at my job, another co-worker bought a magic book in the bookstore of the museum where we worked and figured out how to make a silk disappear with a TT. Oh ho, so they know about TT, eh? So I said to my co-workers, do you REALLY want to see how to make a silk disappear? Of COURSE they did! And they watched me like a hawk. I dare any magi with a chrome TT could get it past THIS crowd! But I didn't use a TT exactly. I had an old TT on the end of an elestic and rigged it as a pull. The pull was rigged through my belt loops to pull the TT to my side, trapping it against a loop. One can even ditch the TT under the waistband of the trousers while you're hiking your britches. By turning the guilty side away from the audience, one can even try this without a jacket.

I blew them away! The audience was totally mystified and I once again elevated my postion as magi in their eyes as they knew there were no TTs as I wiggled my thumbs before their eyes, slowly opening the fingers on my hand, the silk inside vanished, only to return in my pocket! The beauty with magic is that there are usually several ways to achieve the same effect, and some take a LOT more practice and skill. This is something that the lay audience will not deal with. They are too lazy to practice to do a trick well, preparing props, selecting music, etc. When we perform, it is work and a performance.

Hope this helps! May the FORCE be with you and have a magical night!

MagicBill
High-Tech Magic
http://www.high-techmagic.com
May the FORCE be with you and have a magical day!

MagicBill

High-Tech Magic
http://www.high-techmagic.com/
thelastdoctor
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Interesting stuff here. My two cents?

How many of us as magicians have been fooled by the same sleight, gaff or trap door in someone else's effect?

First time I saw MM I was upset but then a couple of days later I "fooled" people at a table with a Mac King give away on "Worlds Greatest Magicians", simple stuff.

We make it work.

Slán
Warren
The Last Doctor
?who?:stout:

I’m always looking for the perfect pint or sugar free Jelly Babies...
magiker
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I have a video called "Salvano´s lecture"
This guy is incredible with a TT.
He has it painted yellow (I think) and it's impossible to see it.
Excellent vid, also includes ropes
Magiker

Believe in the possibility of the impossible
Garrett Nelson
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I have two or three thoughts on this subject.

First, I think the MM was looking for a quick way to make money. I don't find him a great performer in any sense of the word, regardless of what he claims. I disagree with what he did. For one, it is just rude. But, more importantly, it is a slap in the face to magicians who have poured time and money into these effects. What if you had spent months preparing for a tour that utilized some of the effects exposed. The night before your biggest show, that show was aired. How would you feel? Your show and performance is already set, and you know there will be many who know exactly how you did it. You can try to frame it differently, but if you do a buried alive effect, you won't fool those who just watched it on TV. And it is clearly too late for drastic changes.

However, in the long run, things aren't going to be changed much. If some guy knows about a double lift, you won't get caught if you flip 1, 2, or 3 cards in the same way. He will never know what is what. And if you use a trick that is framing the use in a way that seems like a double wouldn't help, you will be fine.

Third, I am into the art, and I can't remember how some of the effects exposed were done (I am more into close-up). If I forgot, I am sure many, many people forgot.

-GDN
Martin Pulman
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I wish magicians would sometimes tell the truth and stop deluding themselves.
Once a trick has been exposed the "magic" is gone,period.I dont care how you dress it up if the audience recognise the mechanics of ,say, a double lift you aint gonna blow them away with any routine that utilises it.
And dont give me that, think up a new method approach.How many new methods do you know that are better than the Invisible Deck?
Anyone who exposes magic on TV should be made to do the bullet catch with real bullets!
Dayanara
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GarrettDN> Baby, apparently you have seen ANY of my posts. We need to talk, hon.

By the way, in case you all haven't figured it out before, I'm the woman that keeps defending magicians who are innocent. I'm the one who keeps WAM on their knees and off people's backs. Did I ask for a new job? Smile NO! But I have one anyway! So back off!!! Smile *ahems...eats some chocolate because...*

Sorry to all my friends. But anyway, y'all keep straying off the subject. The due date is Wednesday, the 18th. 8pm, FOX. And it's not Val. Know how I know? Val vowed over 5 years ago when he started this whole fiasco, that he'd only reveal OLD tricks. Smile Plus, if you look at the TV Guide, the person's got girly hands. And my MAN does NOT have girly hands. Smile

I have to go. I'm sorry. I'm having a *ahem* problem right now. Smile Bye, everyone.
Manipulix
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I agree with Peter Marucci,
even if the discussion is as old as mankind.
Let them show what they want. The art of deception seems to be important.
Peter, you told that Dunninger was the guy with the key ring. Here I heard that it was Dai Vernon. Who is right?

Magically yours

Manipulix
What is life without a little bit of magic?
bdormer
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I'm solidy in defense of these "exposures" - I wouldn't necissarily do it myself, but whats done is done - and second the points raised by Mr. Marucci, Sun Tzu and others....

Nobody gets on Jeff McBride, Jay Sankey, etc. for making a video. So what if the MM made a video (and just happened to get it on TV). Now everyone THINKS they know how to saw a lady in half - for each trick, MM only showed them one method (out of many).

If you REALLY want to take a devious tack on this - look at it this way: The Masked magician has handed ALL OF US the ultimate sucker gag. The lay public doesn't realize that there is more than one method to any effect, and they've only been shown ONE WAY to do it.

So, we now have the GOLDEN opportunity to take that preconception and use it against them. Let them think they know what's going on, then blow their minds....

The joke is on them, not us!
Huw Collingbourne
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You know, I've watched programmes on TV in which voice coaches have revealed the 'secrets' of breathing, training and technique needed to sing operatic arias. Now that I know these secrets, I still can't sing Mozart or reach those top glass-shattering top Cs! But I have a heck of a lot more respect for those people who can.

Maybe we should give the general public their due. Most people already know great magicians use props, gimmicks and sleights. But when they see a great magician at work, they still get an adrenaline rush of excitement and admiration just as they would when they hear a great singer.

In short, great magic isn't in the gimmick. It's in the performance.

all the best
Huw
Dan Farmer
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I think that is a mixed statement. If you shown someone how say...the Thurston five card vanish and reproduction is done. I would say even knowing how it's done it is amazing to see because you know that it takes an incredible amount of skill to do it well. Even my friends who know about backpalming still (well some of them) like to watch me do a manipulation routine. BUT when you expose how something easy works. Let's say the Erdnase color change. Now that's just stupid. Anyone can do that, it's not impressive at all if you know how it's done. Singing takes skill and that's impressive SOME magic takes skill which is also impressive. However, some magic only has guile in it's corner and is pretty stupid without it.

-Dan
Huw Collingbourne
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Quote:
On 2002-07-03 17:20, jackmh wrote:
SOME magic takes skill which is also impressive. However, some magic only has guile in it's corner and is pretty stupid without it.

True. Maybe I'm just slightly prejudiced in favour of the really skillful stuff (not because I can do it, I can't - I'm still labouring over the basics). All I can say is that I get a much greater kick out of seeing, say, Lance Burton or Guy Hollingworth, perform something of real skill and finesse than I do from seeing a gimmick used by someone of more modest talents (e.g. someone like me Smile )....

In short, gimmicks might be threatened by exposure. Talent isn't.

best wishes
Huw
Peter Marucci
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Huw Collingbourne writes: "In short, gimmicks might be threatened by exposure. Talent isn't."

Well said!

Smile
cheers,
Peter Marucci
showtimecol@aol.com
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