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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » New to magic? » » Card sleights & tricks for beginners -- a minor variation on Geoff Weber's list (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Bob G
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Hi Harry,


Our posts crossed. Yes, I love your Magic Book.


Regards,


Bob
Bob G
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Hi again, Harry. Thanks for the tip about the slip cut force. You may have discussed your non-ballet handling elsewhere also, but I found it in Best of Friends II.


Bob
Harry Lorayne
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Tarbell #7 also comes to mind - but I'm too lazy to check it out.
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]

http://www.harrylorayne.com
http://www.harryloraynemagic.com
Bob G
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Lazy?! Ha! I don't think so. I'll look into T7.
pmarzionna
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On May 11, 2018, Bob G wrote:
3. Does anyone have any favorite tricks or sleights to add?


Design for Laughter (RRTCM) or Revelation (Harry's Close Up Card Magic): probably one of the first card tricks I've ever did, and still one of my all time favorites.
Which I usually follow with A Tipsy Trick (RRTCM), which might be the same thing as "Sloppy Triumph" suggested by TW - I'm just guessing by the name.

And I really think that a DL should be a part of this list.
Bob G
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Thanks for your ideas, pmarzionna. I've heard lots of good things about Design for Laughter. It uses the glide, so perhaps the latter should be on the list.


About the DL: I guess the question is, what's the purpose of this list? Is it a self-contained set of suggestions for people who have some experience with card handling but haven't done much sleight of hand? -- to give them confidence to move on to more advanced stuff? Or is it to give them a set of things to start working on that will be useful to them in the future?


I hadn't thought about those questions when I wrote my OP. I was motivated by what I saw as an uneveness in difficulty in Geoff Weber's list. I could imagine a final product that consisted of two lists: one of genuinely elementary sleights and tricks, and another of suggestions for harder sleights and tricks to start working on, with the understanding that most beginners shouldn't expect to master them in a short time. If we went that route, I'd put the DL on the list of harder sleights. Having two lists would be complicated; it would require a detailed look at the tricks and the sleights that they use, in order to decide what goes in which list. I wouldn't look forward to that -- too big a project.


I can certainly use some guidance here. For one thing, I'm not familiar with most of the tricks on Terrible Wizard's list, and I don't have personal experience with all of the sleights people have suggested. People often think of the DL as a basic sleight, but I found it hard to learn (and mine still needs work), and I know from comments on various fora that I'm not alone. Another move whose difficulty could be debated is Lorayne's HaLo cut (mentioned by TW). It's a wonderful no-get-ready bottom slip cut. I can imagine that for a beginner with more talent than me, or for an experienced magician, this sleight would be easy to learn. But it's taking me many months to perfect. I'm very close now, but I wondered whether it should be on this list. Here again, if we had two lists, I'd put it on the more advanced list.


Another factor: I don't want to simply reproduce Geoff's list from 2004. Geoff already made his list!


Okay, so I was thinking out loud a bit there... hope it was still useful. I think I'm coming to the position that the list should be directed toward a self-contained set of suggestions for people who have some experience with card handling, but not a lot. Who maybe have done self-working tricks (however you define that) and want to try some fairly easy sleight of hand. There's no lack of books and DVD's that teach the DL; what I haven't seen much of is the sort of thing that Bob Longe does in 101 amazing card tricks (also mentioned by TW): mostly self-working with a handful of easy sleights. As I continue to think about what I'd hope we'd produce, I'm leaning toward a list that's just a bit beyond Longe's book: all sleight of hand, but nothing very difficult.


Hope that makes sense!


Bob
Bob G
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P. S. Again, think of the DU as a model for the difficulty level. Is the slip cut force at roughly that level?
Bob G
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P. P. S. Sorry to dominate the airwaves, but pmarzionna got me thinking (always a dangerous thing). I don't know if you remember, TW, but a year or so ago I asked you how hard the EC was in comparison with the DL. As I remember, you said the EC was a *lot* easier. I haven't tried the EC yet, but here's my current thinking: the DL is too hard for this list. So maybe we could set an admittedly subjective range as follows: DU is at the low end of difficulty, and EC is at the high end. Any opinions? My ultimate goal is to encourage beginners to sleight of hand, but not to overwhelm them.
carlyle
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Bob - I suggested the Braue Addition because it's used in quite a number of nice tricks (in one form or other) and it's a concept that comes up all the time. Load a selection for a sandwhich trick, or load a reversed selection among (say) four queens. It can be used as a sort of multiple shift for signed selections or the four aces, etc. Id say quite a number of tricks I do use it in some way - the basic idea of it, at any rate. And it's the starting point of things like ATFUS and Hartman's Secret Subtraction, which are also very useful.

And the crimp - I used to think it was ruining cards, too, but now I find it's actually making the card much more useful. You have the Nick Trost book, in the back he describes how to make a bottom-cutting breather. Use it as a key and you have a very easy control. Probably not best to cut right to the crimp after the return of the card, of course - but there's lots you can do to make it natural. Shuffle around the key and cut, or a series of false cuts and then cut. With a table - ribbon spread, gather and cut for a riffle shuffle, etc. If you're going to use your own deck, it's something you really might like to experiment with.

I'd possibly add a buckle to the list as well - they come up quite often, too.
danaruns
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Quote:
On May 11, 2018, Bob G wrote:
People often think of the DL as a basic sleight, but I found it hard to learn (and mine still needs work), and I know from comments on various fora that I'm not alone...here's my current thinking: the DL is too hard for this list.


FWIW:

I'm definitely no cardist, but I really don't think the DL is that difficult and belongs on the list. In fact, I will be teaching a version of it today to Magic I students at the Magic Castle (I help Mark Wilson teach classes there). These people have only a few weeks of magic classes under their belts. It definitely belongs on the sleights for beginners list.

It does take some dedication. When I put my mind to it, I learned it in a week. I would sit with a deck of cards and go through the whole deck doing 500-1000 DLs a day. And after a week or so I had a decent, reliable, invisible DL.

But if you're just playing around with it, it can be frustrating. When I was just kind of playing around with the DL, I remember trying to do it in a performance at Jeff McBride's school. It went so badly that Jeff started suggesting workarounds, and Eugene Burger told me I should just give up on the DL forever, since he thought it was a bad move anyway. Very embarrassing and dispiriting! But then Pop Haydn inspired me to really dedicate a short but intense period of time to it, and with massive repetitions it just clicked.

So my takeaway is that it just takes huge reps of doing it the right way to commit it to muscle memory, and then you will have it. So, me personally, I'd include it on the list. I don't think it's any harder than an Elmsley count.

Just MHO, FWIW.
"Dana Douglas is the greatest magician alive. Plus, I'm drunk." -- Foster Brooks
Bob G
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Thanks, Dana. I appreciate all the contributions you've made the threads that I've started.


Whew! -- I don't like that story about Burger. Not good teaching (I say that as a teacher). I'm glad you didn't give up.



I don't know whether you consider yourself a fast learner, in general. I'm not. I'm a college math prof, but you'd never have guessed it from my freshman algebra class in high school. I had a whole year of frustration, and then all of a sudden, when I was studying for the final exam at the end of the year, everything clicked! It was really exciting -- the sun was even shining through the window, just like in a movie, and I solved problem after problem with no trouble at all. Although I didn't realize it at the time, I had the drive to learn things that I really wanted to learn. even in the face of lots of obstacles. I'm like Barliman Butterbur in the Lord of the Rings, about whom Gandalf said, Don't underestimate him. He's slow, but he'll see through a brick wall in time."


In a similar way, sleights don't come easy for me (except, as I've mentioned, the pinky count -- go figure). I followed your advice about doing the DL intensively (when you gave it before), and it helped a lot. On my good days I have an impressive strike double lift (at least I hope so). But I'm still inconsistent. And I'd probably mess it up in performance due to nervousness. That probably means that I need another period of intensive practice. And I'll have one -- when I have time.


It's great that you've taken lessons from people like Haydn and McBride, and that you teach with Wilson at the Magic Castle! I'm most impressed. My guess (feel free to correct me) is that you knew from an early age that you wanted to be a magician, and that you're endowed with an unfair share of talent in this area! Quite different from my situation. The magic bug bit me two years ago, when I was sixty. Given that I'm not going to retire for a few years, I'm spending much more time on magic than I should!



So, should the DL be on the list? I imagine that people could go round and round forever about this. When I retire, I expect to put lots more time into magic and I hope I'll progress more quickly. By then I may say, "Why didn't I want to include the DL?!"



But honestly, I don't want to forget this feeling of what it's like to be trying to learn some sleights and getting frustrated. I can imagine that there are beginners who would hear someone saying to them, "You really need to learn the DL," and get discouraged and give up magic unnecessarily. So I'd prefer to err on the easy side rather than the hard. From what you say, maybe the list shouldn't include the Elmsley count either! (Though I intend to learn it myself.) But I can certainly imagine adding to the list, "and here are some more difficult sleights that you should learn once you've mastered the ones on the list."


Anyway, that's my thinking. Opinions like the ones you offered help me clarify my thinking.


Bob
Bob G
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Carlyle,


Thenks for your lastest post. You've motivated me to look into the Braue Addition and the Crimp. It occurred to me that I have lots of old decks that I wouldn't mind subjecting to the crimp. And Daryl has a nice section on Braue in his Encyclopedia. (And probably one on crimps, too.)


Bob
Terrible Wizard
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I think a 'good' DL/DT is very hard.
ActionJack
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As a new guy here, I appreciate the work you all have put into this. Dana’s post resonated with me regarding her hard work and keeping at it.
Bob G
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Thanks on behalf of all of us, ActionJack. And welcome to the Café. I absolutely agree with you about Dana's hard work and persistence.


Terrible Wizard has supplied most of the sleights and tricks so far, and deserves a lot of credit.


Terrible Wizard, thanks for your input on the DL in your most recent post. Was I remembering right that you felt EC is easier than DL? I'd really like to include at least one packet trick sleight. The small packet DL (as opposed to full deck) is pretty easy, and can be used in the wonderful trick Color Monte (and in Paul Wilson's equally wonderful variation, Gypsy Monte).
Terrible Wizard
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Yes - not that I think the EC easy. It's just that I think many underestimate how hard a truly deceptive DL is. From a small packet the yes, IMHO, the DL becomes much easier.
Bob G
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P. S. to ActionJack: "New" doesn't necessarily mean "inexperienced." I'd welcome any thoughts you have about the difficulty of the sleights and tricks that have been mentioned, and any thoughts on s. and t. that we should add.
Bob G
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Hi Camron (and others),


I have a question -- you'll see why I'm asking it when I post a preliminary compilation of the ideas that we've been batting around.


Suppose that at the end of a trick we have a card -- let's say the 2H -- reversed somewhere in the middle of the deck. (The audience believes that 2H is no longer in the deck.) Is there a simple means by which we can make the 2H reveal itself in the course of the *next* trick (or the trick after the next trick), thus cleaning up from the first trick? I thought perhaps a crimp could be part of trick #2 -- maybe force the 2H using a crimp? But I'm pretty vague about this and would be happy to hear any reasonably simple method.


I want the revelation of the missing 2H to be well separated from the first trick, so that spectators have nearly forgotten about the 2H and thus are surprised to see it turn up again.



Thanks for any ideas....


Bob
Bob G
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Of all the sleights that have been listed, which ones do people see as primary, and which secondary? By primary I mean "occurs in lots & lots of tricks"; by secondary, "occurs now and then but a beginner could do without it for a while.


Judging from my own reading and (meager) experience, I'd think of the break as primary (essential, actually), and the top and bottom slip cuts as secondary. (Despite my having practiced the HaLo cut for months -- nearly there! -- in order to do a particular trick.)


(The DL is primary, of course, whether or not it ends up on the list.)


Controls, forces, and false cuts and shuffles would be primary, I'd think.
Terrible Wizard
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Yes, I'd agree with that assessment - false shuffle + cut; basic control; force; break are primary and foundational.
Primary and intermediate/advanced (IMHO) are: DL; palm; cull; EC.
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