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Vlad_77 Inner circle The Netherlands 5829 Posts 
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Laurent,
I agree that we choose the "best" (read SUBJECTIVE term here) method for a given effect. Certain effects as I think we agree upon such as Cavorting Aces would require a Pass in the effects purest structure. Other methods COULD replace the pass in that effect, but, those methods would weaken it. I like that you also mentioned the CF. There are certain effects when any other approach would not do. So, yes, the pass is valuable, but no more or less than any other method in GENERAL. frimuraren12, I have to differ with you I am afraid concerning Cavorting Aces. (And here to stave off TWO people in another thread that accused me of calling myself an "authority": I am NOT. I am merely offering an informed observation). Anyhow frimuraren, I have performed this effect and for me it is a powerful effect, and I use it as part of a Bullets routine I have cobbled together in which NO cards are selected but a TON of visual interactive magic occurs. Mickey has chimed in as well concerning this effect, and no, we aren't ganging up on you. We are (Mickey I hope you don't mind my saying this) trying to point you to the flaw in your post in which you state that, in your words, "Its not even a trick that laymen cares [sic] much about." It is perhaps valid in your experience that your audiences do not "care" about it. I would offer that perhaps the effect is just not "you" in terms of your presentational style. If you have read my comments in other posts about how Sam the Bellhop just does not "work" for me, you see that I have experienced the lackluster response. But, the important thing is that Sam the Bellhop IS an excellent effect regardless of the fact that it never played well for me. Let me rephrase that: I did not play well for IT. Since my "style" does not lend it self to story effects, I do not fit the effect. I would ask you - non-authoritatively - to be very careful about a blanket statement. Just my opinion which is worth 1.98 after taxes. 
So folks, again I ask, are we so close to our work that we have forgotten how laypersons see our magic? Corollary to this is, are we running when we are not being chased? These are not rhetorical questions. I would be keenly interested in continuing the discussion. The OP has perhaps unwittingly created an excellent topic for informed discourse. Ahimsa, Vlad |
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Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts
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Quote:
On 2010-05-23 09:36, Laurent van Trigt wrote: What an interesting idea! I am not yet where I want to use the CP as the pivotal sleight in an effect, but now I realize perhaps I can start using it as a "shuffle effect" to see the reaction and practice the misdirection without the worry of ruining the effect. Gotta try this...
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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Quote:
On 2010-05-22 11:59, frimuraren12 wrote: Your problem is you are wasting your time around folks who think about magic and sleight of hand in a way that forces them to be unpleasant. Go find some other folks to hang out with.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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frimuraren12 New user 69 Posts
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Sorry I did not mean that Cavorting Aces is a bad trick and again I don't think the pass is a bad move, you can do some really fantastic stuff with it when you get good at it.
But I think that when people are going to "sell" the pass and how great it is people always bring up tricks like the Cavorting Aces and telling you how it would be impossible to do it without the pass and to that I say, So what? There are lots of material that is equaly strong or even stronger that someone who does not do the pass can do. |
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Voldemort Special user Florida 562 Posts
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Quote:
On 2010-05-22 10:01, frimuraren12 wrote: If you don't have the skill to pull it off man... Its really no big deal. I mean... that's really what we are talking about here isn't it? You can't do it so therefore it can't be as great as everyone says?
"Flight from death"
Buy the WILD AT HEART e-book to help Rachael Columbini here: http://www.lybrary.com/wild-heart-p-76110.html |
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frimuraren12 New user 69 Posts
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Quote:
On 2010-05-23 16:42, Voldemort wrote: I can do it so fast that time stands still when I do it, its never really been proven why that happends but it does so they do not allow me to do it anymore. Have you seen the new movie prince of persia Sands of time? If you don't please go watch it, great movie. Anyways the story is based on what happends when I do the pass. And I can tell you a secret.. Obama and the US goverment is working on a new powerfull energy source. You guessed right. How to turn the power off my pass into energy, that's how powefull it is. |
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Dan Bernier Inner circle Canada 2298 Posts
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I had the pleasure of watching a master perform several different passes in person. His name is Jason England. Even though I knew what he was doing before hand, his passess were absolutely astonishing. I was even burning him the whole time and still couldn't see it happen.
Since his lecture, I have been practicing the classic pass, but from a whole new perspective. I first learned it from Ellusionist.com, but since learning it properly from Jason England, my pass is much more clean looking. I use it and have never been busted. I just don't over-use it, and I am no master. 
"If you're going to walk in the rain, don't complain about getting wet!"
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AMcD Inner circle stacking for food! 3078 Posts
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Quote:
On 2010-05-22 11:59, frimuraren12 wrote: You're wrong, partial shifts beat the pass and even cut cards. Just have a look here buddy: http://www.arnoldmcdonald.org/code/main.php?p=6200000 Link: Cut Card Bypass #1 :) |
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Rachmaninov Inner circle 1076 Posts
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I think lot of magicians think they have a good pass because you can't see it in the mirror and spectators don't say anything because they are too polite or they just want to enjoy the tricks no matter they see something, because of course they know there is something. It is not sufficient : angles of the classic pass are not so good (Kato is right saying that it is far more difficult to make a good classic pass for a large group of people, namely with wide angle). And I have never seen an undetectable classic pass. Only invisible. And saying that, I'm including Krenzel, Forte, Dingle, Kaufman… Their pass is sufficiently good to get unnoticed by laymen with misdirection. But with the eyes on it, some laymen will notice something is happening, even with the fast conditioning hand movement preceding the pass.
I can remenber a professional performance, we were only two spectators at that time of the day, I spotted a classic pass, completely obvious (I didn't expected it). It was really bad. My wife saw nothing because the eye contact was good and so the gaze misdirection. I was a little on the side, and he has made the error to make the trick for her, not for both of us. He should have turn a little toward me when doing the pass and switch his gaze from her at the beginning of the sleight to me at the end. The point is : do you think he has fooled me ? Does he think his pass is invisible ? I think he has fooled himself only. If I have spotted the pass, a layman will at least feel something has happened. Conclusion : I'm still working on my classic pass, even though there is not so much but a few moves which are as convincing as a super efficient pass. |
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Rachmaninov Inner circle 1076 Posts
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Speaking of Dingle, I have his Paris tape, on which experts say that he was in good shape, all of his passes are visible, there is a lot of hand movement. It is lightning speed, but very obvious. And they are unequal. He is doing each one after another in a row. He is using a lot of high speed hand movement conditionning.
I can't believe that the best card men in the world who are practicing several hours a day are inferior to amateur magicians. I'm saying that in reaction to some of the posts above. |
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Rachmaninov Inner circle 1076 Posts
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And for me, if you want a neat control, there is far better methods than the pass, especially if you don't delay it (check Erdnase advice). Since everybody know that you control the card, to my mind, the best controls are the one in which you do absolutely nothing. I'm using only multi layered and multi phases methods of control, at first in an act so spectators who have high attention at this moment can allay their suspicions after seeing nothing happen. When they know you can't control cards, they relax their attention, they give up on this very fast, and so you can use passes, side steal …
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Rachmaninov Inner circle 1076 Posts
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In this last case, control of a card is becoming a side magical effect in itself, but buried in the whole effect. And after a while in the act, it is becoming implicit.
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Magic-Daniel Inner circle Denmark 1328 Posts
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Quote: .
On Apr 19, 2009, Caliban wrote: Yeah, Jamy Ian Swiss needs to work on his pass ;-) |
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rgemagic New user uk 55 Posts
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Like any move. It's only bad if done badly
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lord_wallmotto Loyal user 291 Posts
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I have seen some "top" pros do their pass in performance and a lot of the times it looks like a minor earth quake going on down there even if you can't see what happens. It is impressive, but not invisible from a "he did not do anything!" - perspective.
I mean, its one thing to do it perfect one time in front of a camera with absolutely no pressure and an unlimited amount of retakes and a completely different thing do to it at a walk around gig with people standing everywhere, some skeptic who just burns your hands even though the rest of the group enjoy your performance, sweaty hands, a bit of nerves etc. Just look at the Kaufman tape. It is a good pass, but it is filmed in a no pressure situation from THE PERFECT angle. How often do you get that in real life? |
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Rupert Pupkin Inner circle 1452 Posts
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Please, for the love of god, don't look at the Kaufman tape.
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evikshin Special user 892 Posts
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The pass can be the worst sleight ever--FOR some individuals. There are many variants of the pass, some more angle proof, some more suited for certain performing conditions than others.
Also, just because we magicians can spot it (because we know what to look for), doesn't mean laypeople can. If you can use a pass consistently in performance and NOT have laypeople catch it or even suspect it (which is just as bad), your pass is good. |
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Rachmaninov Inner circle 1076 Posts
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You are right, but again, most of the time, people will say nothing if they see or even suspect something.
Let's face it, most of our moves are not so good : we would never do those movements if we would'nt cheat… |
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Magic-Daniel Inner circle Denmark 1328 Posts
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In the hands of magicians who understand sleight of hand and have their techniques down, the pass (and it's variants) is absolutely some of the best tools in card magic. Period.
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ImpromptuBoy Special user Toronto, Canada 898 Posts
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Quote:
On Jan 28, 2017, Magic-Daniel wrote: Agreed! If you have the technique down cold, there's no reason for anyone to suspect anything happened. The whole move takes 1 second to perform. If anyone is uncomfortable performing it in full view, a GREAT variation of the pass is Ed Marlo's table edge pass. The dirty work is done at the edge of the table, and the deck comes again into full view as you square it up on the table |
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Posted: May 23, 2010 05:10 pm 
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