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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Every meat eater wants to be a vegan and I can prove it to you (32 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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S2000magician
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Quote:
On May 30, 2018, stoneunhinged wrote:
I also bet that JoeJoe doesn't know your name, S2000magician.

It's a minor point, but it says something about this conversation.

You just brought an idea to mind: has anyone heard from Magnus recently?

I just realized that I haven't seen him around here for quite a while.
stoneunhinged
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He posts at Facebook occasionally, and I have PMd him within the last month or two. He is doing well, as far as I know.
art85y
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Quote:
On May 22, 2018, JoeJoe wrote:

blah blah...
No caveman is going to walk up to a dead dying pig carcass and say "gee that looks delicious", noooo ... mold fungus bacteria maggots ... you see that you are going to want to vomit.
blah...

-JoeJoe


what a totally silly way to start an argument.

How about...
" no caveman is going to walk up to a rotting apple and say 'gee that looks delicious' ... noooo mold, fungus, bacteria, maggots ... you see that you are going to want to vomit.
Use the FORCE Luke.
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Dec 14, 2018, art85y wrote:
Quote:
On May 22, 2018, JoeJoe wrote:

blah blah...
No caveman is going to walk up to a dead dying pig carcass and say "gee that looks delicious", noooo ... mold fungus bacteria maggots ... you see that you are going to want to vomit.
blah...

-JoeJoe


what a totally silly way to start an argument.

How about...
" no caveman is going to walk up to a rotting apple and say 'gee that looks delicious' ... noooo mold, fungus, bacteria, maggots ... you see that you are going to want to vomit.


To ask JoeJoe for consistency and logic is an absolute waste of your time.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
art85y
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Thanks for the heads up.
Use the FORCE Luke.
1KJ
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On May 23, 2018, WitchDocChris wrote:
I believe I have a somewhat unique perspective in that I was vegan for several years when I was in my early twenties.

I enjoy the taste of meat - when cooked properly. Which is the actual problem. Most people don't seem to know how to cook, and thus must cover mediocre cooking skills with too many seasonings and sauces. A good cut of beef, cooked in a bit of butter with a dash of salt is delicious.

When I cook veggies for myself I tend to just heat them up a bit and eat them, as I do enjoy their natural flavors. Poorly prepared veggies are just as nasty as poorly prepared meats.

It's all about balance, though. If I eat too many of various types of veggies now, it wreaks havoc on my system. I am significantly healthier now than I was then. I have also met some very unhealthy vegans (Both massively overweight and underweight) who weren't paying attention to their bodies.

There are no one-size-fits-all solutions for diets, it's a matter of exploring what works for each individual.

Honestly I think the only universal thing would be if everyone learned how to cook their own food instead of relying on boxes and processed foods. It's surprisingly easy to make most things from scratch and doesn't take that much time once you get proficiency in the basics of cooking.

So, sorry to say, but I categorically disagree with the statement that all meat eaters wish they were vegan.


This is a very good post, and I agree. one of my daughters is a vegan, and I am convinced that she is lacking something because she does have some small issues that I think are related to diet.

I once had lunch with a VERY successful medical doctor friend who specializes entirely in preventative care. This subject came up. He said that if you want to know an ideal diet, you should look to how our ancient ancestors ate prior to any farming or domestication. He said that our genetic code comes from hundreds of thousands of years (or more) of evolution. Our bodies evolved to make the most of what we ate. He suggested that while there might be slight variation based on where each persons ancestors came from, most of us evolved to eat mostly plant food, say around 85%, but also around 15% animal food. He also said that fruit was likely only 10-15% of our diet.

My ancestors are mostly from northern Europe, so some meat and even some potatoes are ESSENTIAL if I want to have optimal health.

If your ancestors are mostly from tropical climates, you might benefit from more plant food.

So, optimal health is not based on whether you or your ancestors thought something was yummy or enticing. Our bodies evolved to make optimal use of the mix of foods we ate, regardless of whether we considered those foods to be yummy.

KJ
magicfish
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Really? It isn’t obvious? We don’t need doctors of medicine to tell us we are omnivores by nature. Sigh. We are primates with both molars for reducing plant matter and insisors for tearing flesh, and binocular vision for tracking prey. We are Omnivores. Always have been, always will be. This is basic classification of living things. Grade 9 I believe.
critter
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Re: fermented dairy
Dairy allergies are absurdly common. I wouldn't consider the saturated fat and sugar content of dairy to be worth the protein and added vitamins. There are much healthier ways to get those nutrients.

Now, I'm not saying everyone should or shouldn't give up meat. I chose to because it was the right choice for me personally for both health and ethical reasons.
And I do believe that there are somewhat ethical ways to eat meat.
But for the most part in our society eating meat affordably means supporting an industry that abuses both animals and humans.
And it's not just about animals. There are thousands of indentured servants in Brazil's meat and leather industries and they are primarily black, are often provided one small meal a day and very malnourished, and frequently die from such treatment. That cannot be allowed to continue.
Additionally, the cattle industry is the overwhelming majority of the reason the rainforests are being destroyed in Brazil. That hurts the environment, causes the extinction of entire animal species, and has severely damaged several indigenous tribes living in that rainforest.
A lot of my friends have gone pescatarian. I don't judge them for that. I did it for a few months but then I felt bad about contributing to overfishing.

So these are the reasons I am vegan. I don't require anyone else to share this point of view but if what I say does resonate with anyone else that's awesome. If it doesn't I can live with that too.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers


"This I offer in explanation of how it was that I found myself in my undergarments as I sat in my cell attempting to plot my escape."
~Professor Phineas Valeyard, Miskatonic University Dept.of Psychodynamic Natural History.

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critter
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Quote:
On May 29, 2018, Mike Gainor wrote:
Wrong is not the right word; as it has a lot of seemingly personal hostility behind it, JoeJoe's issue is that he is portraying beliefs as absolutes - which don't hold up to scrutiny.

If I had to choose between a fast food burger or a black bean burger... I would choose the bean burger, though if not available Wendy's still makes a decent burger Smile


I think the Beyond Burgers have a taste and texture virtually identical to a regular burger. Even my kids think so and they are very picky eaters.
Unfortunately they're relatively expensive and have a nearly identical nutrient profile to a regular burger. High calorie, high fat. But if someone is vegan for strictly ethical reasons then they're a great choice. Personally I only eat them a couple of times a year but it's a treat when I do.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers


"This I offer in explanation of how it was that I found myself in my undergarments as I sat in my cell attempting to plot my escape."
~Professor Phineas Valeyard, Miskatonic University Dept.of Psychodynamic Natural History.

New Facebook Page:
https://www.facebook.com/Valeyard-Magic-Stage-233226717588438/
critter
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Sorry for multiple posts, just caught up on the entire thread and see a lot of valid points and nonsense on both sides.

Re: "Think like a caveman": What I recall from anthropology class is that the most common theory is that primal peoples were more likely scavenger/gatherers than full-time hunters. Not that they didn't hunt, it was just a huge expenditure of energy when it was easier to just pick stuff up. They also picked up tubers and seeds. And you know what? Sometimes those seeds were toxic! You know what else? They pretty frequently processed and cooked plants. Ever try to chew a wild tuber without cooking it? Do you know that raw potatoes contain a toxin that will harm you if eaten in excess? Do you know how many toxic plant species there are and how common it is for people to die eating misidentified plants? Do you know that many cruciferous vegetables contain goitergens that will exacerbate thyroid problems and that this effect is nullified by cooking them?
Why do you think there are morter and pestle sets in stone aged toolkits if not to process plants to make them edible?
Do people not eat raw meat? What do you call steak tartar and sashimi?
In addition, many plants have nutrients that can only be absorbed by cooking them.
I believe that the healthiest diet should include both raw and cooked plants.

If you want to prove something you'd best have the science to back it up.

I highly recommend this book to learn about how dangerous certain plants can be and to dispel a lot of myths:
https://www.amazon.com/Wicked-Plants-Lin......d+plants

Now let me explain why I counter these points: As a social psychology major who specialized in social influence I can tell you that weak arguments only strengthen people's resistance to your point of view. If you want to convince someone to see things your way then you have to lead with strong facts, politics aside.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers


"This I offer in explanation of how it was that I found myself in my undergarments as I sat in my cell attempting to plot my escape."
~Professor Phineas Valeyard, Miskatonic University Dept.of Psychodynamic Natural History.

New Facebook Page:
https://www.facebook.com/Valeyard-Magic-Stage-233226717588438/
landmark
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My 2 cents:

1) People have different needs
2) People have different wants
3) Different choices have consequences for other humans
4) Different choices have consequences for non-human sentient beings
5) The second biggest lie among humans is "It tastes just like meat! "

It's a lot to consider. I think most people go by habit without too much thought or experimentation about it.
Senor Fabuloso
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Quote:
On Dec 14, 2018, critter wrote:
Now let me explain why I counter these points: As a social psychology major who specialized in social influence I can tell you that weak arguments only strengthen people's resistance to your point of view. If you want to convince someone to see things your way then you have to lead with strong facts, politics aside.


You might want to look into "conformation bias" to see why facts don't matter, these days.
No matter how many times you say the wrong thing, it will NEVER be right.

If I'm not responding to you? It's because you're a TROLL!
magicfish
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Quote:
On Dec 14, 2018, 1KJ wrote:
Quote:
On May 23, 2018, WitchDocChris wrote:
I believe I have a somewhat unique perspective in that I was vegan for several years when I was in my early twenties.

I enjoy the taste of meat - when cooked properly. Which is the actual problem. Most people don't seem to know how to cook, and thus must cover mediocre cooking skills with too many seasonings and sauces. A good cut of beef, cooked in a bit of butter with a dash of salt is delicious.

When I cook veggies for myself I tend to just heat them up a bit and eat them, as I do enjoy their natural flavors. Poorly prepared veggies are just as nasty as poorly prepared meats.

It's all about balance, though. If I eat too many of various types of veggies now, it wreaks havoc on my system. I am significantly healthier now than I was then. I have also met some very unhealthy vegans (Both massively overweight and underweight) who weren't paying attention to their bodies.

There are no one-size-fits-all solutions for diets, it's a matter of exploring what works for each individual.

Honestly I think the only universal thing would be if everyone learned how to cook their own food instead of relying on boxes and processed foods. It's surprisingly easy to make most things from scratch and doesn't take that much time once you get proficiency in the basics of cooking.

So, sorry to say, but I categorically disagree with the statement that all meat eaters wish they were vegan.


This is a very good post, and I agree. one of my daughters is a vegan, and I am convinced that she is lacking something because she does have some small issues that I think are related to diet.

I once had lunch with a VERY successful medical doctor friend who specializes entirely in preventative care. This subject came up. He said that if you want to know an ideal diet, you should look to how our ancient ancestors ate prior to any farming or domestication. He said that our genetic code comes from hundreds of thousands of years (or more) of evolution. Our bodies evolved to make the most of what we ate. He suggested that while there might be slight variation based on where each persons ancestors came from, most of us evolved to eat mostly plant food, say around 85%, but also around 15% animal food. He also said that fruit was likely only 10-15% of our diet.

My ancestors are mostly from northern Europe, so some meat and even some potatoes are ESSENTIAL if I want to have optimal health.

If your ancestors are mostly from tropical climates, you might benefit from more plant food.

So, optimal health is not based on whether you or your ancestors thought something was yummy or enticing. Our bodies evolved to make optimal use of the mix of foods we ate, regardless of whether we considered those foods to be yummy.

KJ

This is interesting. For optimal health, one should eat the diet one’s ancestors evolved to subsist on.
Very interesting.
landmark
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Quote:
For optimal health, one should eat the diet one’s ancestors evolved to subsist on.


That's a good starting point, but that only points you in the direction of the average. When you get down to the individual level, there are differences, and it's worth learning about what one's own particular needs and wants are.
Dannydoyle
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On Dec 14, 2018, critter wrote:
So these are the reasons I am vegan. I don't require anyone else to share this point of view but if what I say does resonate with anyone else that's awesome. If it doesn't I can live with that too.


What a wonderful position to take. Lots to be learned here from this attitude about any subject you care to name.

Bravo sir.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Animated Puppets
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Strange Thought... if everyone became vegetarian, what would we do with all the livestock? Let them roam?

Based upon 2011 numbers:

30,086,000 beef cows and 9,085,000 dairy cows
9 billion "broiler" (baby) chickens, both males and females, are raised.
66 million Pigs.
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magicalaurie
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I've got a few things to add:

"30,086,000 beef cows and 9,085,000 dairy cows
9 billion "broiler" (baby) chickens, both males and females, are raised.
66 million Pigs."

And how many humans?

The catch in all this: plants are sentient, too. So, in my opinion, the main lesson for humans is in realizing and accepting we all get by with a little help from our friends. Peace.

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"Every thought you think, word you speak, and action you take proceeds from either love or fear. Peace and upset, innocence and guilt, healing and illness all spring from that one fundamental choice." Alan Cohen
Animated Puppets
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On Dec 15, 2018, magicalaurie wrote:

And how many humans?



325.7 million (2017)
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magicalaurie
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"7.7 Billion
7.7 Billion (2018) The current world population is 7.7 billion as of December 2018 according to the most recent United Nations estimates elaborated by Worldometers."

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en-CA&a......ahiMaGIg

2014 livestock maps:

https://www.vox.com/2014/6/20/5825826/th......igs-live
"Every thought you think, word you speak, and action you take proceeds from either love or fear. Peace and upset, innocence and guilt, healing and illness all spring from that one fundamental choice." Alan Cohen
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On Dec 15, 2018, Senor Fabuloso wrote:
You might want to look into "conformation bias" to see why facts don't matter, these days.
Perhaps accidental, but that's a frightening phrase.

One could also raise an argument about eating meat based upon water costs. Farmers versus ranchers has been a factor in our history.

* comic closing line: I'm not going to get into whether or not the grass likes to be mowed.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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