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Yehuda
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How should posts on a magic forum be considered as far as the "published record"?

For example, if someone throws out an idea in a forum and I run with it and either come up with a variation of it or it inspires me to create something similar but new, obviously I would give credit to the one that posted it. But the real question is, if it is something he only mentioned in a post and never put it in print, or on a DVD, etc., would it be right to publish a variation without his permission (This question is based on the assumption that it's not cool to publish a variation of someone's idea if that original idea is not published anywhere, as this seems to be the accepted "rule" in this)?

Interested to hear the thoughts of others on this.

Yehuda
Gerald Deutsch
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These forums are a place to exchange ideas and I don't think "permission" is needed from a poster if you "create something similar but new" but I do believe that you should "give credit to the one that posted" the original idea or thank the one that explained more details.
danaruns
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I don't think you should take another person's idea and run with it. I think you should concentrate on developing your own ideas.
"Dana Douglas is the greatest magician alive. Plus, I'm drunk." -- Foster Brooks
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Jun 8, 2018, danaruns wrote:
I don't think you should take another person's idea and run with it. I think you should concentrate on developing your own ideas.


Bingo we have a winner!
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Gerald Deutsch
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Quote:
On Jun 8, 2018, danaruns wrote:
I don't think you should take another person's idea and run with it. I think you should concentrate on developing your own ideas.

Then why read books???
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On Jun 8, 2018, Gerald Deutsch wrote:
Then why read books???


from the OP:
Quote:
...only mentioned in a post and never put it in print, or on a DVD, etc...publish a variation without his permission

I got the impression the focus was about publishing in the magic market rather than exploring items to perform.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Yehuda
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Quote:
On Jun 8, 2018, danaruns wrote:
I don't think you should take another person's idea and run with it. I think you should concentrate on developing your own ideas.


Thanks for the responses, everyone.

I find this post difficult to understand, because I think it is very rare that you'll find a new "innovation" in magic that is not somehow based on some other thing (or usually multiple things) that came before it. The "things" I refer to are trick plots, premises, presentations, techniques, principles, philosophical concepts, misdirectional ideas, the list goes on and on. All of these influence magicians to think of "new" things. You can take a look at magic's best "creators" and I think you will find that all of them were well grounded in the work of others and based their own "creative" work on that (whether it was consciously or subconsciously) in one way or another. And even if you find some that maybe were not well-read, it's hard to say their "creativity" would not have benefited from having seen more.

Many have said this before me: Creativity is the ability (skill) to combine different ideas (EXISTING ideas) together to produce something new.
Whenever I hear the line "There's nothing new in magic," I tend to have exactly the opposite reaction. If not for everything that exists in magic, we would have so much less to work with to create new things. I think the MORE there is out there, the MORE there is yet to be explored. [Note: I think there may be the few brainiacs among us that can literally make something from nothing, and yes, we have seen brand new concepts invented on occasion, but this is not a regular occurrence and certainly is not the normal expectation from many of us.]

I think if everyone would only get excited about their own "creativity" when it is actually something BRAND NEW (unlike anything that came before it), then we would be lacking a lot of the creativity that we see today.

Please do not get me wrong. I am totally against people ripping off tricks that came before them and calling it their own. This is wrong and should not be your goal in creating.

However, I do think if you had a team of Max Maven, Bill Kalush, Denis Behr, Stephen Minch, Bill Goodwin (just to name a few) examine every trick that came out, even the ones that are regarded as "New Tricks," they will be able to point to many many sources before to show you that all the ideas were already in print somewhere. Which doesn't take away from what the creator did. To wrap up this post, my point is just that to think that you are working on your OWN ideas and never running with the idea(s) of others may be being dishonest to yourself.

Sorry for the rambling,
Yehuda
Dick Oslund
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A post, well worth reading!

It brings to mind the old line: "Originality is the art of concealing your source!" heehee
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
Yehuda
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Thanks, Mr. Oslund.

Yehuda
Tom Cutts
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First, The Café is a published, historic, and copyrighted work.

Second, anyone who considers not asking permission should not be publishing anything.
jstreiff
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Here is a real world example. Last year someone asked if there were any routines based on the "Truth or Lie". They were not looking for which hand type effects. Inspired by this idea, I developed such an effect. AFAIK the effect and presentation are entirely my own. I see no reason to credit in this particular example.
John
Yehuda
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Thanks, jstreiff. That's what I was trying to get at.

Everyone was immediately responding "can't steal other's material" or "work on your own material," but really to do something as you did IS your own, but it was inspired by something you read from someone else. I think this is a good discussion about "right or wrong." I don't think it's so obvious...

Yehuda
Tom Cutts
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Quote:
On Jun 8, 2018, YRauch wrote:
For example, if someone throws out an idea in a forum and I run with it and either come up with a variation of it or it inspires me to create something similar but new, obviously I would give credit to the one that posted it. But the real question is, if it is something he only mentioned in a post and never put it in print, or on a DVD, etc., would it be right to publish a variation without his permission (This question is based on the assumption that it's not cool to publish a variation of someone's idea if that original idea is not published anywhere, as this seems to be the accepted "rule" in this)?

To reclarify, you appear to be contradicting yourself. One sentence you say you would credit for an idea thrown out in a forum; the next you say you wouldn't and go on to make statements which discount forums as a form of publishing.

So, one thing needed is a clear example of the difference you hold between "idea thrown out" and "only mentioned".

I neither see much difference between the two, nor understand why people feel threatened by crediting the origins of their work. It seems one negative product of the cyber frontier of magic is that people have lost the understanding that this is not some soulless scrawlings on a computer screen. There are people behind the thoughts and ideas posted here. Be they complete ideas or just passing ponderings, real people are behind what gets posted here. [The only exception so far is a very persistant invasion of recent bots which post stuff having nothing to do with magic and which is promptly removed.]. My point being, if you were in a room and had a conversation where someone threw out an idea, would you ten minutes later in a conversation with another group of people throw out that same idea or one similar as your own?

Have we gone from a society where crediting was the onus of the one publishing to a society where crediting is the duty of the third party to press and discover?

Is the creativity of people threatened by the thought that their idea was actually triggered by something they heard, saw, or read?

Detailed crediting is respectful of both the history of this craft and of other creative thinkers in this craft. So I repeat, if you can't give credit for the source of your ideas, you shouldn't be publishing. Is it so threatening to one's ideas that one can't even say, "This all started when I read a post by Sam Smith about having a card appear inside a balloon doggie."

And guess what, if one treats crediting as incosequential, one's ideas will suffer that same fate. So if one doesn't care about what they are contributing, and it's just to turn a buck (of which many examples abound here) then in my book at least, you shouldn't be publishing. When you credit you encourage the respect of ideas and inspirations, and their source. When you don't, you suffocate history.
Jonathan Townsend
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The topic is also about taking an item into print which was only mentioned online - into our literature - without the permission of the artist whose work he's using.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Dannydoyle
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If one wishes to take credit for their ideas it only seems fair to give others credit for theirs. This should include where your inspiration came from when you choose to publish.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Yehuda
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Quote:
On Jun 13, 2018, Tom Cutts wrote:
Quote:
On Jun 8, 2018, YRauch wrote:
For example, if someone throws out an idea in a forum and I run with it and either come up with a variation of it or it inspires me to create something similar but new, obviously I would give credit to the one that posted it. But the real question is, if it is something he only mentioned in a post and never put it in print, or on a DVD, etc., would it be right to publish a variation without his permission (This question is based on the assumption that it's not cool to publish a variation of someone's idea if that original idea is not published anywhere, as this seems to be the accepted "rule" in this)?

To reclarify, you appear to be contradicting yourself. One sentence you say you would credit for an idea thrown out in a forum; the next you say you wouldn't and go on to make statements which discount forums as a form of publishing.

So, one thing needed is a clear example of the difference you hold between "idea thrown out" and "only mentioned".

I neither see much difference between the two, nor understand why people feel threatened by crediting the origins of their work. It seems one negative product of the cyber frontier of magic is that people have lost the understanding that this is not some soulless scrawlings on a computer screen. There are people behind the thoughts and ideas posted here. Be they complete ideas or just passing ponderings, real people are behind what gets posted here. [The only exception so far is a very persistant invasion of recent bots which post stuff having nothing to do with magic and which is promptly removed.]. My point being, if you were in a room and had a conversation where someone threw out an idea, would you ten minutes later in a conversation with another group of people throw out that same idea or one similar as your own?

Have we gone from a society where crediting was the onus of the one publishing to a society where crediting is the duty of the third party to press and discover?

Is the creativity of people threatened by the thought that their idea was actually triggered by something they heard, saw, or read?

Detailed crediting is respectful of both the history of this craft and of other creative thinkers in this craft. So I repeat, if you can't give credit for the source of your ideas, you shouldn't be publishing. Is it so threatening to one's ideas that one can't even say, "This all started when I read a post by Sam Smith about having a card appear inside a balloon doggie."

And guess what, if one treats crediting as incosequential, one's ideas will suffer that same fate. So if one doesn't care about what they are contributing, and it's just to turn a buck (of which many examples abound here) then in my book at least, you shouldn't be publishing. When you credit you encourage the respect of ideas and inspirations, and their source. When you don't, you suffocate history.


Thanks for the response, Tom. I understand your confusion.

What I meant was that I PERSONALLY would give credit to ANYONE that inspired ANYTHING I am doing IN ANY WAY. [I am currently working on a book for the past few years and if you saw my notes you would see the amount of crediting I do and how important I think it is.] However, the question I then posed is if this is actually something that the "magic community" views as an "obligation" or if I am just going beyond the "letter of the law."

Yehuda
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
...would it be right to publish a variation without his permission ...


stay focused.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Yehuda
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Quote:
On Jun 17, 2018, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Quote:
...would it be right to publish a variation without his permission ...


stay focused.


Hey Jonathan, I don't understand your response. I think my clarification of my previous post made sense (to me at least). If it was not clear, please let me know. A lot of times that can happen since I know what I mean so the words make sense to me, but they may not read well to someone that does not know my intention.

Yehuda
Tom Cutts
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It would seem Jonathan means, you have said you will be crediting, but you are questioning what the standard for doing so is. Don't question. Do the crediting as you have stated.

More toward your ponderance:

A. There is no "Letter of the Law" because there is no law.

B. This is a matter of ethic, and ethics can vary greatly.

C. There seems to be fewer and fewer people each year who have any concern for crediting.
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On Jun 11, 2018, Dick Oslund wrote:
A post, well worth reading!

It brings to mind the old line: "Originality is the art of concealing your source!" heehee


an old line...
Quote:
Whereas in Europe the height of originality is genius, in America the height of originality is skill in concealing origins.

In no country is personality valued as it is in America, and in no country is it so rare.

— Cyril Edwin Mitchinson Joad, 9 March 1927, The New Republic, Raspberries from England by Robert Littell, (Book Review of The Babbitt Warren by C. E. M. Joad)

was that a Michael Jackson impression you added at the end?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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