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123majik123
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After reading through the encyclopedia a number of things struck me about the power of hypnosis.

It seems that if you hypnotize the subject whilst he is already asleep (talking to him whilst he is in bed sleeping and moving him into hypnosis) then you could give him the suggestion that he will not remember being hypnotized. If you then gave him a posthypnotic suggestion of say, being rehypnotized when you touch his arm, then you could keep hypnotizing him without him realizing it (given that you keep suggesting amnesia).

With this in mind, could you then go to suggesting that at 11 am in the morning he will cheer really loudly?

In effect what I'm saying is if you keep inducing amnesia every time you hypnotize someone, then give posthypnotic suggestions, then you could do some power stuff without the subject realizing that you are suggesting them to him.

Also, there was a routine in the encyclopedia that stated that if you get the volunteers to imagine it's really hot and they want to go swimming. Then it is possible to get them to take their clothes off. Now wouldn't this be against a lot of people's moral code?

If this is not the case (because you are creating an artificial situation that they would normally do that in) would it then be possible to induce them to become really angry with someone for a reason that they normally get angry for and make the subject cause someone else serious damage?

These things just struck me as kind of odd when reading through. Anyone experienced in the matter if you could please reply that would be great!

Thanks.

...Oh sorry I forgot to add this but I do realize that all of the above would be entirely immoral and would never attempt to do this. Especially without professional training from a master. But I'm just like to read and learn about hypnosis. Thanks again.
Karswell
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Quote:
On 2004-04-29 07:31, 123majik123 wrote:
...all of the above would be entirely immoral and would never attempt to do this. Especially without professional training from a master.

Oh that's good, I like that! It IS true, you DO need professional help to be immoral lol.

Nick
Bambaladam
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Let's just say there's no reason to believe everything you read.

At the same time, there's no reason to doubt what seems reasonable.

Try it out and see.

/Bamba
123majik123
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On 2004-04-29 10:47, Nick Ridge wrote:

Oh that's good, I like that! It IS true, you DO need professional help to be immoral lol.

Nick.

LOL! Seriously though any thoughts?
Karswell
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I would distinguish between suggestions which do not require a trance state and hypnosis or entrancing someone into an altered state or a narrow state of focus a controlled dissociation. Therefore, you are not necessarily doing hypnosis by suggesting something.

Creating a PHSuggestion can work with a sleeping person but there are more disadvantages than bonuses. Not to mention a consenting issue which could cause grave legal problems for you.

About the moral code—briefly, suggestions in a hypnotic state do get acted upon, but there is a great 'moral' filter that would alert anyone to anything objectionable to them. Any degree of hypnosis requires increasing levels of trust and agreement from them, something very easily torn forever. And yes, reframing what their actions are based upon can lead to them believing an onion is an apple and that eating it will be advantageous to them.

A man tried everyday to walk across water. After 30 years he succeeded and crossed that river. What an enlightened fellow said one man. What a great fool said another, he could have crossed with the boat for a handful of small change.

Good luck.

Nick
procyonrising
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Hey 123,

Apologies, but Nick is wrong. There is no quantifiable "moral filter" available to you when hypnotized. There were several studies done on this, but one by Martin Orne (formerly of UPenn) comes to mind. He hypnotized several people and asked them to either throw acid (really just water) or a live snake at the experimenter. Most of them complied (there was an invisible glass screen preventing the subjects from grabbing the snake). Additionally, I've had the utterly hilarious experience of watching a hypnotist freak out when he gave a hypnotized subject a knife, suggested the person stab him, and the subject actually came lunging at the hypnotist, ready to draw blood.

And no. Hypnosis is not very likely during sleep. Something happens when we sleep that causes our consciousness to detach. Thus, we can't hear most of the time we're asleep. (Note: it is possible to suggest things when in the lightest stages of sleep, as in the case of lucid dreaming). If you can't hear what's being said, you can't respond to it... period.

John Riggs talks of some of the amnesia stuff you mention in his "Messiah Process." Other than that, the answer is "yes." You probably can get a large number of subjects to remove their clothes by suggesting their clothes are on fire. (But if they're that uninhibited, why don't you just ask them to take their clothes off? It's not as hard as it sounds.)

JS.
Karswell
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With respect, if I had a pound for every person who said 'you are wrong' and 'this is how it is' relating to the subject of hypnosis...

People do not retain their 'moral' filter during hypnosis? If you can get someone to throw 'acid' on an experimenter when in hypnosis, with no other reframing or reasoning as to why, they will do so waking. In fact in the study you mention, a second control group of subjects who were *not hypnotised* threw the same snake and acid at the same experimenters. This doesn't prove anyone has removed their moral sense. In general they will accept, somewhat literally, suggestions that are both pleasing and advantageous to them. One key way round this is to make the onion an apple – to reframe.

As far as giving verifiable suggestions during sleep. It is possible and I've done it. There are many studies relating to how the environment you are in during sleep, including the auditory environment, can affect you. I do agree with you about the stage of sleep there are in, relating to hearing, one of several big disadvantages of such a generally unsatisfactory method.

Nick.
mesmer
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I agree with Nick!
How true...How true...
procyonrising
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Nope. I still disagree.

Morality is highly malleable; thus, it can be argued (and argued quite successfully) that one's morality does not stay stable across situations or time.

Stanley Milgram did an experiment where subjects were asked to induce electrical shocks on other subjects (really just confederates). The experimenter had them increase the shock levels until the subject believed they were just about killing the other person - yet, they still complied. Here, the subjects reported that they had violated their own sense of morality - because they were told to. It's not that these people weren't moral to begin with, they simply succumbed to a stronger social pressure. This is similar to arguments some researchers use to disprove hypnosis; that's all just social pressure. There's no reframing here. Just a person's socialized need to conform to authority (read Cialdini's Influence if you want more background on this).

And, it doesn't matter if you've "done it." The funny thing about science is that it doesn't care if it's happened once or twice before; what matters is if you take 100 people, control for extraneous variables, do it to them, and it works for a statistically significant number of them. That's what matters. Studies have been done on just that (suggestions during sleep and subliminal aural suggestions) and they just don't work. While I do agree that there are indeed studies that show EEG differences with color, temperature, and other environmental variables (I mean, if you're sleeping in the middle of a battlefield, you're going to notice it), that doesn't mean it automatically extends to include hypnotic suggestion. It's faulty logic.

How true, how true...

Oh, if you re-read the Orne study, you'll find that there was a significant difference between the hypnotized and faking groups and their behavior when asked to hurt the experimenter.

And, if you still don't believe me, take a look at Zimbardo's Stanford Prison Experiment. It's liberal probity's finest hour...
Karswell
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Again, being in ‘hypnosis’ does not, of itself, obliterate a persons sense of what is objectional to them. This would continue the basic popular myth that a person immediately becomes a complete moron-automaton.

The popularised studies you mention don’t even involve hypnosis, but were studies in other aspects of social psychology - I have studied them. These are the other aspects of how people change and are persuaded to change and was my point. Ever wonder why Cialdini hasn’t included hypnosis in his results of what causes compliance in any of his many studies or books? Consistency, reciprocation, social proof, authority, liking, and scarcity: why do think rapport is so essential in hypnosis? Or why authority is effective? Or what the basis of hypnotic changework could be? Have a look at Hypnotic Language: Its Structure and Use (John Burton, Ed.D. and Bobby G. Bodenhamer, D.Min.) that covers the many ‘hidden’ psychological processes that cause change in hypnotic work such as likeness, closure, dissonance reduction.

With the Orne study, you implied that it was the *hypnotising* of some subjects that lead them to unbelievable compliance with extreme requests that were strongly incongruent with their ‘moral’ beliefs. This was simply not the case and wrong.

Briefly, you claim ‘hypnosis’ is “not very likely during sleep” (and at the same time “it is possible to suggest things when in the lightest stages of sleep”), I’m saying it *is possible*, not proven, and have done it to my satisfaction and not just speculated upon it - I’m not saying that’s anything similar to a validated scientific study on it.

Nick.
Nikodini
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I firmly believe that some people can be hypnotized but is there any credible evidence for mass hypnosis? Is that possible or is it just a myth?
majhra
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Nikodini,

It really depends on what you mean by 'mass hypnosis'.

To give you a really good example of hypnotic response. What do you do when you hear your national anthem at a sporting event? Do you stand and salute, do you withdraw into respectful silence, or something else? Chances are, most of the people around you will be doing that same thing.
If I'm sitting next to you, chances are (not being a Canadian) I'm going to be confused how to act. If I act normally for my own anthem, I could be beaten to a pulp for disrespect! Hypnotic conditioning at it's best....

Enjoy,
M.
Tom Cutts
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M,

Respectfully, masss observance of patriotic natures are conditioned responses, not hypnosis. The two are quite different.

Now to mass hypnosis, yes it does exist, thought those who use it don't want you to know about it or be discussing their use of it.

Tom
Kevin Ram
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I am learning hypnosis from the ormond mcgill book.
I was trying to hypnotise my brother , using the arm levitaion method, and it was working as I got his arm to rise to his head.
the thing is I am stuck. I don't know where to got from here.
I tried other methods from there saying 'u going deeper e.t.c and now you are hypnotised.but it just does not happen.
what am I supposed to do to get him in a trance? ( so I can get him to act like a chicken!....lol)

but seriousley, I'm stuck , so any help would be appreciated
"Your the Italian stallion" As said by my g/friend
Stephen Long
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Kukram,
Many here will be quick to tell you that you'll have a very hard time hypnotising your own family members.
A significant factor when it comes to the success of hypnosis is belief (on the part of the hypnotist as well as the subject).
If you are just starting out, then your own conviction might not be quite strong enough; if you are performing for a family member, then his conviction might not be quite strong enough.
These two factors combined are probably working against you. Others here might be able to help you further.
Hello.
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