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elimagic
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Hello all!

I'm interested in the experts' thoughts here on how to tell genuine hypnosis from pseudo hypnosis. I've seen this term thrown around a bunch in reading in this section in regards to various training dvds and such. However, I'm interested in how it can be known whether it is genuine or not, what the signs are, etc. Just a general discussion and thoughts on the subject and spotting the difference between the real thing and the watered down "hypno tricks" of pseudo hypnosis.

Eager for your thoughts.

-Eli
Mindpro
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Hmmm. Not sure about the "watered down" "hypno tricks" of pseudo hypnosis. To be clear, pseudo hypnosis is not hypnosis, not just a watered down version in any form.

When you are properly trained in hypnosis the "signs" will be well defined and easily identified. It is like if you are a parent of little kids and being able to easily identify if they are pretending to be asleep compared to knowing that they are really asleep.

Fake hypnosis is like when a magician tries to tell an audience "I am going to put my assistant in a deep hypnosis trance" then proceeds to simply wave his hand in front of her face while saying "SLEEP!" as her eyes immediately close and she falls loose and limp into his arms (on cue). There is not a person on the audience who actually thinks or believes she is hypnotized or the magician in anyway is a hypnotist (except of course the magician himself).

Unlike other forms of entertainment, there is a huge expectation from those attending a hypnosis show. Even though most do not clearly understand what hypnosis is, they do have an expectation based on either seeing a hypnosis show in some format or from simply the way hypnosis shows are positioned.

Even those that are suspect or claim they don't believe in hypnosis will often be transformed and true believers once they have witnessed and experienced a true hypnosis show. This, of course, widens the gap between real and pseudo even more at that point.

The one word of advice I offer those I teach, train and represent, is the audience needs to see the process. There are many qualified and skilled hypnotists that choose to use an instant or rapid induction, and while they are actual legitimate methods, they often come off as just as unbelievable or doubting and fake or pseudo hypnosis. Why? Because they (audience) needs to see the process, which like pseudo hypnosis, is missing.

When they A.) understand the what they are about to see and expect, B.) are educated to what hypnosis is and what it is not, and then C.) see it (hypnosis) actually occur in action before their very eyes, their belief is unlike most other types of performances. Now, this is, of course, coming from someone skilled as both a hypnotist and an entertainer (two completely different set of skills and disciplines.) This is what most "studying" hypnosis will likely not find in most hypnosis books or hypnosis-for-magicians DVDs or training.

This is just the tip of the iceberg but should begin to answer your question.
elimagic
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On Aug 23, 2018, Mindpro wrote:
Hmmm. Not sure about the "watered down" "hypno tricks" of pseudo hypnosis. To be clear, pseudo hypnosis is not hypnosis, not just a watered down version in any form.

When you are properly trained in hypnosis the "signs" will be well defined and easily identified. It is like if you are a parent of little kids and being able to easily identify if they are pretending to be asleep compared to knowing that they are really asleep.

Fake hypnosis is like when a magician tries to tell an audience "I am going to put my assistant in a deep hypnosis trance" then proceeds to simply wave his hand in front of her face while saying "SLEEP!" as her eyes immediately close and she falls loose and limp into his arms (on cue). There is not a person on the audience who actually thinks or believes she is hypnotized or the magician in anyway is a hypnotist (except of course the magician himself).

Unlike other forms of entertainment, there is a huge expectation from those attending a hypnosis show. Even though most do not clearly understand what hypnosis is, they do have an expectation based on either seeing a hypnosis show in some format or from simply the way hypnosis shows are positioned.

Even those that are suspect or claim they don't believe in hypnosis will often be transformed and true believers once they have witnessed and experienced a true hypnosis show. This, of course, widens the gap between real and pseudo even more at that point.

The one word of advice I offer those I teach, train and represent, is the audience needs to see the process. There are many qualified and skilled hypnotists that choose to use an instant or rapid induction, and while they are actual legitimate methods, they often come off as just as unbelievable or doubting and fake or pseudo hypnosis. Why? Because they (audience) needs to see the process, which like pseudo hypnosis, is missing.

When they A.) understand the what they are about to see and expect, B.) are educated to what hypnosis is and what it is not, and then C.) see it (hypnosis) actually occur in action before their very eyes, their belief is unlike most other types of performances. Now, this is, of course, coming from someone skilled as both a hypnotist and an entertainer (two completely different set of skills and disciplines.) This is what most "studying" hypnosis will likely not find in most hypnosis books or hypnosis-for-magicians DVDs or training.

This is just the tip of the iceberg but should begin to answer your question.


Thank you for your thoughts.
Dannydoyle
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Passing off card tricks as hypbosis is a good example. Mentalists who claim to "use subtle techniques of hypnosis is a great example.

Hypnosis is like juggling. You hide nothing. It is all out there to be seen.

When people see the stuff passed off as hypnosis just to make the claim to seem cool they know.

Then there is an entire category of performers who really want to be doing hypnosis, but instead pass off bossy magic tricks as if it were. Then trying desperately to redefine hypnosis as any result you get.

To me in both cases you end up looking like a wanna be.

Audiences are just not dumb. But if a performer wants to be seen in that light go for it. Not 100% will feel that way. I'm not saying it is wrong. I just believe it is not a strong performance choice is all.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mindpro
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Plus then there are the business aspects and expectations as well.
elimagic
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So would it be correct in assuming that are talking about the hypnotic trance itself as hypnosis and not the pre hypnosis set up as in your pacing/leading linguistic patterns? Because a lot of mentalists do use similar linguistics and I wouldn't call this hypnosis obviously, but wouldn't you say it is part of hypnotic technique being employed? Semantics I know, just trying to garner understanding from the other side. I appreciate both of your thoughts and time.
Dannydoyle
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Maybe in the same way that walking is part of the process of running a marathon sure. But would you ever claim that as part of the technique?

And 90% of mentalists who claim that have just used a magic technique they are trying to dress up.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
elimagic
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On Aug 27, 2018, Dannydoyle wrote:
Maybe in the same way that walking is part of the process of running a marathon sure. But would you ever claim that as part of the technique?

And 90% of mentalists who claim that have just used a magic technique they are trying to dress up.


So to summarize your point, you isolate the pacing and leading segments of the pre trance hypnotic process before a trance as not innately part of hypnosis? Again, I know semantics but I'm truly trying to learn from hypnotists and how they view their art and define the terms. Thanks a bunch for taking that time.
Dannydoyle
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To tell the truth I view the "pacing and leading" statements as snake oil anyhow. But that is another discussion.

Watch Kreskin. He does an entire show without benefit of "trance".

See you're confusing things. The show is the show and hypnosis is hypnosis. Hypnosis is a tool to get the show done. It is not entertaining in and of itself. It is what you do with it that makes it entertaining.

When you want to try to break it down for purposes of discussion it is in a way pointless. It really is. Unless of course you are a guru trying to sell the latest whatever to newbies. In the right environment you can literally walk on stage and say "who wants to be hypnotized"? NO pacing or leading and guess what? IT WORKS. The trance itself is more of a theatrical need than a hypnotic process need.

In reality the opening lecture (Pre trance work as you call it.) is as much for the audience as for the volunteers. The "induction" itself is as much for an audience to be able to frame what they are about to see as it is to put someone into "trance". Again forget "hypnosis" once you step onto a stage and start thinking in terms of what it takes to get a show done. Don't forget you have an audience to address, as well as volunteers to address. You use the same words to talk to both of them, yet say totally different things to them.

For example I have a line where I say "Anyone who wants to be hypnotized can be hypnotized. But there are 3 exceptions to this rule." I then go on to explain that it will work unless you are drunk or on drugs, a small child or have a mental impairment that will cause you to have trouble concentrating or following directions. To the audience I'm simply listing conditions under which this will not work. To a volunteer I am saying people will think you are drunk or on drugs, a child, or have a mental impairment if this process does not work. Once set of words, 2 different meanings depending upon who is listening.

So it is not so much about pacing or leading or what not as much as it is communicating expectations.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mindpro
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THANK YOU! I was just about to type out the same reply. This is what messes newbies up in reading books and learning DVDs. It makes them focus on something they believe to be important, but is placing their priority and emphasis on the wrong things. I agree with literally every single point Danny made above.

Your job first and foremost is to be an entertaining entertainer. Not a performer, not a hypnotist (inducer/executor of hypnosis), but someone who is an entertainer and their discipline or instrument is hypnosis.

So many will spend so much time, effort and unnecessary thought on pacing or leading, and so many other often-used guru terms found in these books (affirmations, neutralizing, anchoring, chunking, layering, conversion, etc.) DVDs and courses. Set-pieces is another that drives me up a wall.

I always find it hilarious when some kid comes up to me after a show and starts saying something to the effect of "so what do you think about/what kind of advice could you give on (insert your favorite term or modality here - layering, pacing, anchoring, etc.)" I can tell he has read a book or thinks he is "learning hypnosis" and usually thinks he knows more than he does. My favorite response of the last 10 years has been "are you a magician?" to which I am always about 85-90% correct, lol. It's all the effect of marketing hypnosis to magicians, DJs, and comedians under a bunch of false promises and facade.

Remember, when performing a hypnosis show you are performing three different shows simultaneously - one for the audience, one for the volunteers and one for the business/client behind it.

My focus, if I were you, would be on creating the right and proper Pre-Talk or Opening Lecture, proper volunteer selection, proper induction (showcasing the process), your routines (skits as some refer to them) in a proper and progressive order, and then any post-hypnotic suggestions, removal of suggestions and returning, and your closing (trying not to use confusing technical terms here). All of course while governed by safety at all times. Entertainment and safety as priority. I have just given you more FOR FREE right here, combined with what Danny said than you will likely get from most currently available resources, especially for stage hypnosis. Print it out, study it, follow it. Let it guide your learning.

Remember stage hypnosis is both an art and a science.
mindpunisher
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Pacing and leading is really powerful in the right context. But stage hypnosis isn't the right context. Stage hypnosis is authoritarian. And it has a specific structure and mechanics as an underlying frame work. Which if carried out even badly will to a degree be entertaining. Even enough to get paid.Which is what you need to get started. You only learn stage hypnosis by doing. Becoming more slick and maximizing the entertainment comes later as you do more shows and internalize the mechanics and watch more successful stage hypnotists. You can then start to focus on each segment in layers and internalize them to.Anchoring HUGELY powerful for a whole range of things. Not snake oil just not needed for stage hypnosis. Great for therapy persuasion or teaching negotiations or sales hypnosis doesn't apply to stage hypnosis which has its own structure.


The simple answer is learn the structure. A basic show isn't that difficult to do. Personally I wouldn't create anything especially at the beginning. If you can't get training then good dvds from a seasoned hypnotist taking you through each step. Learn the scripts word for word. Go out and do it. all the other stuff comes later once you get passed the first hurdle of actually getting out there and doing it. YOU can develop your own style over time.

The reason you don't have to pace or lead in a normal stage setting is because through expectation of attending the show and the audience being in a high state of emotion the most suggestive ones are already in trance. An obvious theatrical induction really helps as well as being entertaining deepens the state and conditions the participants to take on suggestions. Other inductions are less obvious but are inductions never the less. Kreskin does use inductions which are basically a series of steps that take someone from where they are to being highly suggestible. No one can do it without these steps. But they all must lead suggestible people in intense emotional states to respond to suggestions through a series of steps. Roughly about 10% of any audience will be suitable for stage your job is to find them. Or allow them to make themselves known. One of the big skills you need to learn at first. The persona/entertainer comes later. You can't learn it all at once just like you can't get in a car for the first time and drive through a busy city.

Mechanics include

Pretalk
induction Theatrical or otherwise
Content designed to condition to deeper or more suggestible state.
Get the participants responding to suggestions displaying hyper emotional states and inhibited behaviour.
exit the process safely terminate the trance remove suggestions.
Safety throughout.

You need to know why what and how all these elements go together. That is your mechanical framework that all stage hypnosis is based upon.
elimagic
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Wonderful. Thanks gents for the cordial discussion. I appreciate your thoughts.
Mindpro
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On Aug 27, 2018, elimagic wrote:
So would it be correct in assuming that are talking about the hypnotic trance itself as hypnosis and not the pre hypnosis set up as in your pacing/leading linguistic patterns? Because a lot of mentalists do use similar linguistics


No, a lot of today's magic-mentalists may do this. Mentalists that did not come through magic or that are actual psychic entertainers rarely would do such magician's BS to convolude or misdirect or make pseudo-explainations/justifications.
Djin
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This thread is a gold mine. Thank you all.
elimagic
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On Aug 28, 2018, Djin wrote:
This thread is a gold mine. Thank you all.


Truly! The face used to be thrilled with great advice and people genuinely and humbly asking questions and inr eturn getting real answers from people who know better. Now it is full of petty arguing and marketing products that are less than half baked. Thanks to the 2 pros who have shared their thoughts in this thread. Hopefully meaningful discussion can continue and fill the Café once again.
Dannydoyle
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It is an interesting turn that I hope continues.
Danny Doyle
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elimagic
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O boy. Typing on an iphone got the better of me in my last post. First line should be.... “This place uses to be filled...”

Thanks for understanding.

Eli
Dannydoyle
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Having gorilla fingers and typing on phones I do it probably more than you. I didn't even notice.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mindpro
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Quote:
On Aug 29, 2018, elimagic wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 28, 2018, Djin wrote:
This thread is a gold mine. Thank you all.


Truly! The face used to be thrilled with great advice and people genuinely and humbly asking questions and inr eturn getting real answers from people who know better. Now it is full of petty arguing and marketing products that are less than half baked. Thanks to the 2 pros who have shared their thoughts in this thread. Hopefully meaningful discussion can continue and fill the Café once again.



So true. This is what happens when members here understand that there are different levels among us (we are not all on the same level - this is the first basis of learning), that opinions and experience are not the same thing, when respect is offered professionals can be willing to share, that understand and respect that hypnosis is an art and science (not a magic trick or anything to do with magic), and when those here are here without a personal agenda. When this occurs, much can be learned and shared that can serve many.

There are still a few pros here that are willing to share when approached right by those with a sincere and genuine interest in learning.

Hypnotists and mentalists today (90% of today's mentalist are really magicians anyway doing mental magic) would be best served to try to avoid their magician's mindsets and mentalities. This can be more damaging than anything else working against them. Look at mentalists and hypnotists that do not come from/through magic, their level of learning, understanding and typical performance is on levels far different than those stuck in a magic mindset.

I participate often in the business section of this forum, (where like here there may not be as much activity), but some of the most important, useful and profitable information is offered again, to those with a sincere interest in learning that success as a performer is truly in the business behind the performance. So much can be learned when approached the right way. As you can see the results can be more than you can imagine. On one recent thread, the member claimed he learned more in a week from the advice, insight, and information offered by those pros speaking from experience here on the forum, than he learned in the first 10 years of his career in magic. That is the Café at it's best!
252life
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Mindpro, DannyDoyle, Mindpunisher, great thoughts as always.

Just got off of another thread here, and this was a seriously appreciated contrast.

Thanks Smile
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