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Peterson
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"I'd expect that randomly choosing the number of packets stripped and insisting on randomly differing packet sizes would be ideal to best ensure randomness."

Isn't the point of shuffling procedure to protect the house (or anybody) from players who are attempting track cards and NOT to ensure real randomness?

IF we would apply real randomness then we would have a handful of cases where the cards CAN be tracked. IF we sway away from randomness and follow the procedure then we would have 0 cases where the cards could be tracked.
Thomas Gilroy
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Ireland
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I had Jason's suggestion of the designer of a shuffling machine modelling a strip cutting action to ensure randomness in mind.

However, there is no reason I'm aware of that a shuffling procedure which produces a genuinely random shuffle would necessarily allow some cases to be easily tracked. I don't understand how you arrived at that conclusion.
Last Laugh
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Quote:
On Sep 20, 2018, Thomas Gilroy wrote

In the context of a shuffling procedure, I'd expect that randomly choosing the number of packets stripped and insisting on randomly differing packet sizes would be ideal to best ensure randomness.



I noticed when testing out Jason's point about 3 or 4 packets that if the packets are of different size, it's much harder to track where each packet ends up.
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Cagliostro
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Here are some observations on cutting and shuffling which may be of interest to some.

Cutting the cards, either straight cuts or strip cuts has certain inherent weaknesses that are exploitable. Riffle shuffling the cards also has certain inherent weaknesses and they also are exploitable. Cutting and riffle shuffling the cards in combination tends to reduce these weaknesses significantly and tends to insure a randomized deck distribution ON A PRACTICAL BASIS and significantly reduces or eliminates the exploitable loopholes inherent of using one technique or the other. No, it is not perfect, but it is a reasonable compromise.

With a straight cut, nothing changes except the starting point. With repeated straight cuts, nothing changes except the starting point although it may be more difficult to track specific cards or blocks of cards. Repeated straight cuts, interspersed with an occasion packet being pulled from the center of the deck and placed on top or bottom, changes the order of the cards but large blocks of cards still remain unchanged.

With a running or stripping cut, the deck order does not remain the same but large blocks of cards stay in place together. This is exploitable. However, if one does a running strip cut with say 8 stripped packets, this is essentially the same as doing an overhand shuffle with the same number of packets being pulled off. However, clumps of cards still remain intact.

Using a riffle shuffle by itself, sequences of cards move through the deck. The RRSRC procedure used in most professionally run poker games is a compromise between mixing the deck sufficiently to eliminate most exploitable situations but at the same time, limiting the shuffling time to maximize the number of hands dealt.

For those who might be interested in how each card moves through the deck with a riffle shuffle, Expert Card Technique has a table showing how every card's position changes with each shuffle using a perfect riffle or Faro shuffle. These tables also show a number of other interesting aspects of card movement with the perfect riffle shuffle. In fact, eight perfect riffle shuffles restore the entire deck back to its original order. Some of this information can be extrapolated for use when the cards are not-perfectly shuffled.

The RRSRC procedure is a good compromise for shuffling the cards in a poker game. It basically limits the shuffle time to maximize the number of hands dealt and at the same time ensures a good mixing of the cards on a practical basis.
JasonEngland
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Quote:
On Sep 20, 2018, Peterson wrote:
"I'd expect that randomly choosing the number of packets stripped and insisting on randomly differing packet sizes would be ideal to best ensure randomness."

Isn't the point of shuffling procedure to protect the house (or anybody) from players who are attempting track cards and NOT to ensure real randomness?

IF we would apply real randomness then we would have a handful of cases where the cards CAN be tracked. IF we sway away from randomness and follow the procedure then we would have 0 cases where the cards could be tracked.



You make a fair point that you may have to conceal some aspect of the shuffle to ensure both randomness and a non-trackable shuffle.

But you have to have randomness, otherwise you are (theoretically) in danger of being exploited once someone picks up on the non-random pattern or residual pattern during play. Imagine a shuffling process that was completely concealed from me, but that was so weak as to leave long runs of cards in the same order as the previous hand? That wouldn't be any good, even though I didn't follow the shuffle per se, I can deduce the non-random nature of the deck during the hand or game.

See Cag's post on the RRSR. That sequence (and many like it) strike a nice balance between "random enough" and untrackable.

Jason
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