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funsway
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I thought the other extreme would be mandatory carry. Age six and up start carrying a fake one to get used to the weight and strapping - like a training bra.
At 12 you get real one. If you can't afford one you can get a student loan or an apprenticeship in a mortuary.
Bullets could replace coins as a medium of exchange. Lots of advantages.

Of course, the rich folks would have a fancy one for show and more lethal one hidden away, or hire a teenager as a body guard.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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magicfish
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Quote:
On Aug 6, 2019, funsway wrote:
I thought the other extreme would be mandatory carry. Age six and up start carrying a fake one to get used to the weight and strapping - like a training bra.
At 12 you get real one. If you can't afford one you can get a student loan or an apprenticeship in a mortuary.
Bullets could replace coins as a medium of exchange. Lots of advantages.

Of course, the rich folks would have a fancy one for show and more lethal one hidden away, or hire a teenager as a body guard.

I don't get it.
Let's say two gun rights activists from different states were talking.
Would One say, "boy you sure have some strict gun laws over there having to conceal them, where I live I'm allowed to carry it openly on my hip!"
Or would it be, "wow you mean to say you're required to carry openly so everybody knows you have one? Boy that's strict Where I come from I'm allowed to conceal it!"
Would one be envious of the other? Who would it be?
Mr Salk
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The answer is Concealed Carry is the most strict. It requires separate licensing.
.


.
magicfish
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So the concealed carry guys envy the extra freedoms the open carry guys enjoy. Interesting. That's what I always thought.
I always perceived open carry to be the least stringent and the most free.
Others have told me different. That the freedom to be able to acquire an extra license to be able to conceal it is the ideal.
funsway
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I offered my suggestion as a joke to illustrate the silliness of some of the arguments.

But now we have some serious argument - and reasonably presented.

But, I would suggest that what is missing is consideration of the rights of the average citizen -
you know, the one whose rights are guaranteed by the Constitution too --
"to be safe in their person and property, and to be free from fear" stuff.

Any person carrying a gun is a threat to me. Also a person driving a car with a cell phone or can of beer in hand.
I comes down to whether or not I trust the judgement and skill of the other person. I do not!
I see the same person with that new CC license cheat on their taxes, beat their wife, lie to their boss and buy crap from a pop-up ad.

Why should I feel more secure because this guy carries a hand gun - a tool designed to kill a human at a distance with little skill?

In the military I came close to shooting a fellow soldier playing a prank.
I had an off duty police officer who was beating his teen daughter in the street threaten neighbors with a CC - and then tried to have us arrested for reporting him.
I have had kids sitting on hill shooting around me on a survey crew.
I had a man try and hold up my store with a pistol. My wife pushed the cash register over on top of him.
Same wife hide my daughters in a claw foot tub while some drunks shot it out next door.
I had a neighbor drop a pistol and shoot a hole though my car door.

In those experiences I was not afraid - just surprised and wary.

But now I am afraid. The same guy who cuts me off on the freeway or yells at me for taking the last pork chops on sale might be CC.
He probably can't hit me at ten feet but might kill the kid in a stroller next in line at the grocery.

You want the freedom to carry a gun other than to protect your home. What about my freedom to live unafraid tomorrow?

Envy? I want to puke.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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S2000magician
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Quote:
On Aug 15, 2019, funsway wrote:
"to be safe in their person and property, and to be free from fear"

I don't recall reading this in the U.S. Constitution.

In which article or amendment will I find this?
Dannydoyle
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Who guaranteed anyone freedom from fear?

Hilariously and ironically enough the guy who claims this wants to pretend he is so educated about the Costitution in another thread.

You want to legislate fear out of society? Whose fear of what exactly?

I have a fear that someone who thinks like you might one day be in charge. I fear that one day sometime soon someone will try to act upon it.

This far is far more realistic than you being injured by someone with a cc permit.
Danny Doyle
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Animated Puppets
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When you spend your days living in a self-created world, the real world can be scary...
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magicfish
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Quote:
On Aug 15, 2019, funsway wrote:
I offered my suggestion as a joke to illustrate the silliness of some of the arguments.

But now we have some serious argument - and reasonably presented.

But, I would suggest that what is missing is consideration of the rights of the average citizen -
you know, the one whose rights are guaranteed by the Constitution too --
"to be safe in their person and property, and to be free from fear" stuff.

Any person carrying a gun is a threat to me. Also a person driving a car with a cell phone or can of beer in hand.
I comes down to whether or not I trust the judgement and skill of the other person. I do not!
I see the same person with that new CC license cheat on their taxes, beat their wife, lie to their boss and buy crap from a pop-up ad.

Why should I feel more secure because this guy carries a hand gun - a tool designed to kill a human at a distance with little skill?

In the military I came close to shooting a fellow soldier playing a prank.
I had an off duty police officer who was beating his teen daughter in the street threaten neighbors with a CC - and then tried to have us arrested for reporting him.
I have had kids sitting on hill shooting around me on a survey crew.
I had a man try and hold up my store with a pistol. My wife pushed the cash register over on top of him.
Same wife hide my daughters in a claw foot tub while some drunks shot it out next door.
I had a neighbor drop a pistol and shoot a hole though my car door.

In those experiences I was not afraid - just surprised and wary.

But now I am afraid. The same guy who cuts me off on the freeway or yells at me for taking the last pork chops on sale might be CC.
He probably can't hit me at ten feet but might kill the kid in a stroller next in line at the grocery.

You want the freedom to carry a gun other than to protect your home. What about my freedom to live unafraid tomorrow?

Envy? I want to puke.

Puke? Why? If you were in a concealed carry state and wished you could open carry, you may envy your open carry neighbours no?
funsway
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Quote:
On Aug 15, 2019, S2000magician wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 15, 2019, funsway wrote:
"to be safe in their person and property, and to be free from fear"

I don't recall reading this in the U.S. Constitution.

In which article or amendment will I find this?


you left off the "stuff" qualifier. It is an interpretation of Constitutional Rights as outline in the Preamble
that can be found discussed in many articles and letters of the drafters of the Constitution.

Such an interpretation is just as valid as the very liberal extension of the right mentioned in the Second Amendment (which confers no rights)
from having a gun in support of a local militia. No mention of 'home protection" is found in the Constitution either. It is an interpretation.
Certainly no mention of carrying a gun on the street, concealed or otherwise.

I am glad if you prefer a more conservative view of following the words of the Constitution rather than more liberal interpretations of later years.

I will admit that one reason I posted this "opinion" was to see if Danny tolls all of the sites where I post.
It is amusing to see how much time he spends looking for ways to mangle my words and claim to understand what I think. I should be honored, I guess.

But, the issue here is existing laws about the liberal interpretations of the Second Amendment by those claiming to be conservative.
Individual States do have the right and obligation to pass laws to "infringe" on the implied rights of the individual denied to the Federal Government by the Second Amendment.
Whether they can extend those rights is another matter (or should).

I obviously think that States have gone too far in the liberal extension direction rather than more conservative restrictions.
I have the right to express my opinions on these issues based on personal experience and research.
No one has to read my opinions or act on them - certainly not revert to personal attacks because I hold a different view.

To clarify. I feel that my right to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" is just as important as another person's right to carry a gun in public.
My objections are based more on trusting responsible actions by individuals today than any thoughts about guns themselves.

I feel unsafe in my person and restrictive of freedom by too many people carrying guns around for any reason.
It is too easy to kill with a gun, where "self protection" might be better served by "time to think" over emotional reaction. (opinion)

So, I observe current laws and ask questions to determine the attitudes of folk who might be carrying and why.
Then I can gauge how to prepare. If it turns out that everyone is required to Conceal or Open Carry, I want to know what I should be packing.

I am not against gun ownership. I am not against protecting self and home. I am not against individual States having different laws thereto.
But, I am against any law or attitude that makes it too easy to kill another human being - by citizens, police, aliens or evil spirits.

Responsible gun ownership should mean knowing when not to shoot too.

I do not trust other people's judgement. That is the basis of my opinions. I have the scars to justify my opinions about guns and people.
These have made me very conservative about laws and attitudes that put more guns in the hands of people with little responsibility in life.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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funsway
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Quote:
On Aug 15, 2019, magicfish wrote:

Puke? Why? If you were in a concealed carry state and wished you could open carry, you may envy your open carry neighbours no?


To base any decision on envy is questionable. To put another person's life at risk because of envy is terrifying.

I am in a CC State. No wish to carry, concealed or otherwise. No envy either. Being Christian, no "covet" allowed anyway.

But, if necessary, I can hit a deer at 600 yards with by old Springfield and my shotgun near my bed has slugs and "00" alternating.
No envy. Just being prepared for those motivated by it.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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Dannydoyle
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So you intentionally post nonsense to see if you get called on it and then act indignantly when called on it.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mr Salk
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I posit that legal CC folks are motivated be safe in their person and property, and to be free from fear.
They've just extended their space outside the home.

When a pickup full of leering hicks slow-rolls your family walking in a backwoods-town it's nice to know your victimhood isn't completely at the whim of the criminals.
.


.
S2000magician
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Quote:
On Aug 16, 2019, funsway wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 15, 2019, S2000magician wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 15, 2019, funsway wrote:
"to be safe in their person and property, and to be free from fear"

I don't recall reading this in the U.S. Constitution.

In which article or amendment will I find this?


you left off the "stuff" qualifier.

I left it off because it isn't relevant. Nothing in the Constitution guarantees, suggests, or implies a right to live free from fear.

Then you added a bunch of stuff about liberal or conservative interpretations of the Constitution, with particular emphasis on the Second Amendment.

That's also irrelevant to the issue of whether the Constitution guarantees, suggests, or implies a right to live free from fear. It doesn't, interpretations notwithstanding.
funsway
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Free from fear - that's what "life, liberty and pursuit of happiness' means to me.

You have the right to an opinion that such issues are irrelevant, I have a right to an opinion that they are essential.
So, my emphasis is on the First Amendment with the Second only an example of extended interpretation.

To leave off a part of a person's statement because you think it is irrelevant is weird, especially if you intent to twist the meaning of the statement.

I would prefer that if you quote me, include the entire text and allow readers to draw their own conclusions.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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tommy
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Fear is good. No sense of danger gets a lot of young girls hurt.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Aug 16, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
I posit that legal CC folks are motivated be safe in their person and property, and to be free from fear.
They've just extended their space outside the home.

When a pickup full of leering hicks slow-rolls your family walking in a backwoods-town it's nice to know your victimhood isn't completely at the whim of the criminals.


Not bad.
Danny Doyle
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Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Aug 16, 2019, funsway wrote:
Free from fear - that's what "life, liberty and pursuit of happiness' means to me.


You don't get to just make up the meaning of words and sentences, and then claim the way YOU want to interpret it should be law. That is silly.

I mean you can, and as a matter of fact just did, but you certainly don't think anyone will take you seriously do you?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
S2000magician
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Quote:
On Aug 16, 2019, funsway wrote:
Free from fear - that's what "life, liberty and pursuit of happiness' means to me.

And, because you haven't qualified "free from fear", you evidently mean it to include freedom from earthquakes, hurricanes, tornadoes, and other natural disasters that can cause fear, freedom from death of yourself or your loved ones from incurable diseases, which can cause fear, freedom from accidents, which can cause fear, freedom from attack from foreign nations, which can cause fear, and so on.

Quote:
On Aug 16, 2019, funsway wrote:
You have the right to an opinion that such issues are irrelevant, I have a right to an opinion that they are essential.
So, my emphasis is on the First Amendment with the Second only an example of extended interpretation.

Your opinion, however, doesn't establish that the Constitution guarantees a freedom from fear. Some might call that a (very) liberal interpretation of the Constitution.

Quote:
On Aug 16, 2019, funsway wrote:
To leave off a part of a person's statement because you think it is irrelevant is weird . . .

It isn't, actually, but you're certainly free to interpret it as such.

Quote:
On Aug 16, 2019, funsway wrote:
. . . especially if you intent to twist the meaning of the statement.

So, apparently your freedom includes the freedom to ascribe intentions to me, where none actually exist.

Quote:
On Aug 16, 2019, funsway wrote:
I would prefer that if you quote me, include the entire text and allow readers to draw their own conclusions.

You're certainly free to have that preference, just as I am free to ignore it.

It's not as if your original text isn't already there for readers, so I haven't deprived them of anything.
Dannydoyle
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We don't legislate according to your personal fears Ken. Thank goodness.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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