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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The workers » » Diagonal palm shift (35 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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dendrake
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(quote)
"Now, before this turns into a slagfest on my technique, let me qualify a few things. I'm a below average card worker. My technique sucks, my execution of this move sucks, prior to shooting this video I hadn't performed the DPS in months. There's nothing about my execution that is noteworthy. The larger point is that if someone of even average ability uses this move, think of how much better it would look in their hands."

Steve, That was beautiful! You're too hard on yourself.
Any references to able to learn that particular DPS technique?

Dennis
Steven Keyl
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Thanks, Dennis!

As for references I haven't, unfortunately, seen it in print (or video), but I very much doubt the handling is original to me. I'm sure it's been discovered and rediscovered a lot over the last 100 years.
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Cain
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Quote:
On Oct 13, 2018, Steven Keyl wrote:
I'm a below average card worker.


That's a humble falsehood, one which later undermines the "larger point"...

Quote:
that if someone of even average ability uses this move, think of how much better it would look in their hands.


Also, I'm not a fan of the side-steal, mainly because of the timing issues mentioned previously. As for a side-steal looking like a side-steal -- well, that's true for a lot of palming. One does not need to be involved in card magic for very long before realizing that when the hands come together, something evil is happening. This is probably why palming intimidates so many beginners. I know it's why palming intimidated me. I could watch the best of the best, and I'd know precisely when a palm occurred. "If I can see them do it, then what chance do I have?" Most laypeople, however, do not view and think about enough card magic to learn the tells.

One difference between a side-steal and DPS is that a flash is a flash is a flash. Even if neither is particularly deceptive, at least the side-stolen card is less likely to be seen.

As for the DPS, the main angle vulnerability is from above.

Quote:
... prior to shooting this video I hadn't performed the DPS in months.


But it's so useful.
Ellusionst discussing the Arcane Playing cards: "Michaelangelo took four years to create the Sistine Chapel masterpiece... these took five."

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Steven Keyl
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Why so hostile, brother? That's no way for men of good conscience to behave.

Every move has pros and cons, and the suitability of a given sleight should be dependent on context. It is my opinion that the move itself cannot be categorically dismissed as a "crap move". I understand your issues, and by and large, I don't disagree with a lot of your specifics (particularly with regard to delaying the palm--which is quite often the right answer, but not always). It's when those specifics get generalized to the point of dismissing the move in all situations that undercut your otherwise valid criticisms.

As for your general comments on palming, I agree. Getting to the point where you can execute ANY palm takes a certain amount of testicular fortitude. Once you realize how easy it was to actually get away with, you become emboldened to do it again and eventually you don't feel any nerves at all.

I'm not the type that comes to the Café to butt heads with people, and we've had enough exchanges in the past so you already know the respect I've got for your intelligence and knowledge. So to prevent this thread from derailing even further, I won't muddy the waters by posting here again.

So to the OP, keep on with the advice given out in this thread. It is my opinion that this move is a very good one and well worth your time and study. Best of luck to you.
Steven Keyl - The Human Whisperer!

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"If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause, and reflect." --Mark Twain
Cain
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Maybe I should have ended my last sentence with a smiley, but I respect you too much to use emoticons.

Quote:
Every move has pros and cons, and the suitability of a given sleight should be dependent on context.


Context includes available alternatives. If we have two cars that look identical, but one of them costs more, is less fuel efficient, is more liable to breaking down, lacks standard safety features, and so on down the line, then it would be silly to pay more for the inferior product. If the crap car were the only vehicle on earth, then it would be awesome. But it isn't, so it's not. In the Consumer Reports for card moves, the DPS should get tagged with a warning. Look at available alternatives first because it's often relegated to the junk drawer of utility sleights. In terms of trade-offs, time spent on one move is time taken away from another move.
Ellusionst discussing the Arcane Playing cards: "Michaelangelo took four years to create the Sistine Chapel masterpiece... these took five."

Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes: "You know Einstein got bad grades as a kid? Well, mine are even worse!"
perryja32
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Agree that the DPS might not be the most efficient or undetectable move for standard card control purposes, but there a couple of decent applications of it that I've found to work quite well. Certainly neither are 'burnable' (at least when I do it) but structured such that nobody is interested in the deck at that point.
Steven Leung
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Quote:
On Oct 14, 2018, Steven Keyl wrote:
I have never seen a side steal and thought it was anything other than a side steal. That move is not for me. If I don't like how it looks performed by the best of the best, there's no way I'd be able to improve upon it. That doesn't mean I'm going to slag the move, just because I don't personally like it.

Is it possible, Cain, that this move just isn't for you?

For those on the fence about the move itself, I posted a quick demo for two reasons. First, to show that the move is viable. And second, to remind folks that you don't have to do that old frontal insertion of the card in order to get it securely into DPS position. The spec can put it back themselves. They can even do it from a fan (not demo'd).
Now, before this turns into a slagfest on my technique, let me qualify a few things. I'm a below average card worker. My technique sucks, my execution of this move sucks, prior to shooting this video I hadn't performed the DPS in months. There's nothing about my execution that is noteworthy. The larger point is that if someone of even average ability uses this move, think of how much better it would look in their hands.

Is the move viable? Is it deceptive? Would it fly in context of a proper trick? You decide.



Amazingly smooth, you have my salute!
Besides, the mentioned of side steal made me recall my very early stage in learning magic I met someone in a magic shop (wow, magic shop is a term like in history these days) and he argued it was far superior than a pass etc.... His argument simply based on side steal is a control without moving other 51 cards.

Well after more than 15 years, unless a trick will be ruined by change the position of other 51 cards, still I believe side steal is not better than other controls and each has its advantage and limits.

I always remind myself what John Carney taught in his book / video ...if a card control can control a selection to the top, it will be way more deceptive to have card control to the bottom of the deck, from there it look much more invisible and deceptive, plus you can get off move hear from the audience, not to mentioned you can load the selection according to your routine immediately hand out the deck to the audience ask them to shuffle the cards.

Such teaching changed my way of thinking about card control to the top upside down and from that all my most prefer card control will always be to the bottom of the deck, namely Diagonal Palm Shift, Tamariz Perpendicular Control, Lee Asher Pulp Friction, even as simply as overhand shuffle control or double undercut.

My only 2 cents.
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shaunluttin
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I use the DPS when performing Michael Ammar's Card to Matchbook. It's a terrific use case for the move because of the built-in misdirection.

I learned the DPS from The Expert at the Card Table.

For me, the click still exists, but it doesn't matter in the context I use the DPS, because the misdirection is so strong.

Thank you Dorian for the lead on the posts from the late Paul Chosse: https://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/bb_p......user=908

Here is a 29-minute live performance of mine: https://youtu.be/lq2Rj1uf05M

I used to be quite sensitive to criticism; I am much less so now; so, please do criticize my technique, presentation, and posts. It helps me to grow, and I promise to take responsibility and not to be defensive.

countrymaven
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Hi Steven,
Excellent post. you have helped me a lot. I recently stumbled onto an excellent invisible two handed bottom palm. What you mentioned about what Carney said is now so clear to me: control to the bottom not the top. it is so much more deceptive. Thanks for pointing out what I recently learned from one move, so I can advance to apply this tip to other moves. cheers bro!
It is almost humorous how one move can be a terrible move, where to others it is a great move for certain applications. Magic is a creative individual art, how wonderful.
Doomo
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My take on it... https://youtu.be/lhK0FWPRJ30

Tony
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Chris Aguilar
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On Dec 30, 2018, Doomo wrote:
My take on it... https://youtu.be/lhK0FWPRJ30

tony

That's not the DPS. That's using a gaff to achieve a lesser result.

This is the DPS.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2HnAvd1iUA
JasonEngland
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What an odd discussion. Look guys, screwdrivers and hammers do different things. And neither of them do what pliers do. But you can find them all in my tool chest in my garage. So they share a common space and all of them are useful depending on the circumstances.

The DPS and the side steal don't do the same thing, so it's silly to try and make direct comparisons. The side steal delivers a card from the center of the deck into the hand above the deck and the DPS delivers a card from the center of the deck into the hand below the deck. That's it. That's all they do. I can assure you, that if I only need a card stolen from the center and placed into either hand, that I'll probably choose the side steal. But if (for some reason) I want a card stolen from the center of the deck into my left hand then I'm absolutely going to choose the DPS. It just does that (very specific) job better.

That situation doesn't come up very often, but if the routine calls for it (or is well-served by it) then that's the right tool for the job. If the routine doesn't call for that specific handling, then perhaps other controls are better.

Jason
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Cain
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On Jan 6, 2019, JasonEngland wrote:
The DPS and the side steal don't do the same thing, so it's silly to try and make direct comparisons.


You're omitting the context. Someone asked if there's another sleight that can as efficiently deliver a card into palm.

And it's rather silly to say that it's silly to make comparisons. The side-steal and DPS are pretty similar... It might be apples to oranges, but it's not apples to orangutans.

Quote:
The side steal delivers a card from the center of the deck into the hand above the deck and the DPS delivers a card from the center of the deck into the hand below the deck. That's it. That's all they do.


That's not even the most critical difference, which you note later: The side-steal delivers the card to one hand, and the DPS delivers it to the other. Yet another more significant difference is the orientation of the card as it's held in the palm. This "above" and "below" stuff is, well, silly. That's like saying one palm uses a pinky and another does NOT use a pinky. So what? The mechanics matter inasmuch as palming a card from above generally provides superior cover versus palming a card from below -- and largely away from -- the deck.

Quote:
I can assure you, that if I only need a card stolen from the center and placed into either hand, that I'll probably choose the side steal. But if (for some reason) I want a card stolen from the center of the deck into my left hand then I'm absolutely going to choose the DPS. It just does that (very specific) job better.


This is a false comparison. Unless a person is scary-ambidextrous, of course the DPS is better at palming a card to particular hand than the side-steal. In that sense, they're different and we'd compare the DPS to similar "left" palm sleights, such as the TPC, or a Double-Undercut Palm, or culling from a spread.*

Quote:
That situation doesn't come up very often, but if the routine calls for it (or is well-served by it) then that's the right tool for the job. If the routine doesn't call for that specific handling, then perhaps other controls are better.


If a DPS is the right tool for the job, then it's the right tool for the job (as I recall, Whit Haydn presented a trick where anyone should be hard-pressed to imagine an alternative). But let's not pretend the DPS is a screwdriver or a hammer. Not all tools are equally useful. Plenty of kitchens can be considered well stocked even if they don't have pickle-pickers and banana slicers.

The DPS is a wildly over-rated sleight. It's like Krispy Kreme -- not terribly useful and generally superior alternatives are readily available.

*See for instance https://www.conjuringarchive.com/list/book/54?highlight=3741
Ellusionst discussing the Arcane Playing cards: "Michaelangelo took four years to create the Sistine Chapel masterpiece... these took five."

Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes: "You know Einstein got bad grades as a kid? Well, mine are even worse!"
The Burnaby Kid
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On Jan 6, 2019, Cain wrote:
It's like Krispy Kreme -- not terribly useful and generally superior alternatives are readily available.


You watch your mouth.
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HeronsHorse
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Re-edit.
Hello Jay.
All I can say is that I'm New to the move also and I've persevered with Erdnase and then with Mr England's video and I'm happy to say I've now used the move multiple times without getting caught. I absolutely love it, it's very satisfying and enjoyable to practice.
The video that was posted is pretty much irrefutable.
Jason also has a download on this very move that absolutely proves it's use. I highly recommend it Smile
https://store.theory11.com/products/diag......-england
Good price too!

Jason England, thank you for your work. You taught me the move so its nice to have the opportunity to say it. Well, Erdnase taught me it first, but you fixed my misunderstandings! Cheers!
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MagicofDesperado
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Whatever you do don't learn from YouTube.

While good for some things, magic, in my opinion, is not one fo them.

The DPS is a good example.

Learn from Erdnase, and really think about what you're doing.

The worst is the sweeping finger movement you often see near or at completion.

So many people do it that way and it's horrible.

It should look like EXACTLY what you're doing - never forget this.

Good luck.

One little thing I have noticed myself is when the card is about to exit the deck I subtly squeeze and bow the deck by the ends so it changes the relationship of the card/deck to the hand - canceling the click.

D
JasonEngland
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On Jan 6, 2019, Cain wrote:
The DPS is a wildly over-rated sleight. It's like Krispy Kreme -- not terribly useful and generally superior alternatives are readily available.


I bow to your superior knowledge.

Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
Dorian Rhodell
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I knew you'd cave in eventually Jason.
Cain
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Quote:
On Jan 14, 2019, JasonEngland wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 6, 2019, Cain wrote:
The DPS is a wildly over-rated sleight. It's like Krispy Kreme -- not terribly useful and generally superior alternatives are readily available.


I bow to your superior knowledge.

Jason



That's sort of the problem: People would rather use their heads to bow than think.
Ellusionst discussing the Arcane Playing cards: "Michaelangelo took four years to create the Sistine Chapel masterpiece... these took five."

Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes: "You know Einstein got bad grades as a kid? Well, mine are even worse!"
HeronsHorse
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You jump in with aggression, derail the conversation and still keep on coming back to have the last word.
How very mature.
Go on then, have it.
Smile
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Those who think that magic consists of doing tricks are strangers to magic. Tricks are only the crude residue from which the lifeblood of magic has been drained."
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