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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The workers » » Diagonal palm shift (34 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Rupert Pupkin
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Quote:
On Jan 19, 2019, HeronsHorse wrote:
You jump in with aggression, derail the conversation and still keep on coming back to have the last word.
How very mature.
Go on then, have it.
Smile


Aggression? Where? All I see is even-keeled, well reasoned disagreement.
magicfish
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Quote:
On Jan 19, 2019, Cain wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 14, 2019, JasonEngland wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 6, 2019, Cain wrote:
The DPS is a wildly over-rated sleight. It's like Krispy Kreme -- not terribly useful and generally superior alternatives are readily available.


I bow to your superior knowledge.

Jason



That's sort of the problem: People would rather use their heads to bow than think.

Stating that Jason England hasn't thought about The Expert at the Card Table, proves anything and everything we all want to say to you right now without saying it.
magicfish
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Quote:
On Jan 19, 2019, Rupert Pupkin wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 19, 2019, HeronsHorse wrote:
You jump in with aggression, derail the conversation and still keep on coming back to have the last word.
How very mature.
Go on then, have it.
Smile


Aggression? Where? All I see is even-keeled, well reasoned disagreement.

Ok. Now I know you are a troll.
Rupert Pupkin
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Quote:
On Jan 19, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 19, 2019, Cain wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 14, 2019, JasonEngland wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 6, 2019, Cain wrote:
The DPS is a wildly over-rated sleight. It's like Krispy Kreme -- not terribly useful and generally superior alternatives are readily available.


I bow to your superior knowledge.

Jason



That's sort of the problem: People would rather use their heads to bow than think.

Stating that Jason England hasn't thought about The Expert at the Card Table, proves anything and everything we all want to say to you right now without saying it.


It's a bit too clever by half, but the sentiment is spot-on: We can't accept something as the Golden Truth just because our magic heroes did. Something I know you disagree with, Magicfish.
Rupert Pupkin
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Quote:
On Jan 19, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 19, 2019, Rupert Pupkin wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 19, 2019, HeronsHorse wrote:
You jump in with aggression, derail the conversation and still keep on coming back to have the last word.
How very mature.
Go on then, have it.
Smile


Aggression? Where? All I see is even-keeled, well reasoned disagreement.

Ok. Now I know you are a troll.


Show me where I'm wrong.
Cain
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Quote:
On Jan 19, 2019, HeronsHorse wrote:
You jump in with aggression, derail the conversation and still keep on coming back to have the last word.
How very mature.
Go on then, have it.
Smile


I rather enjoy personal attacks of this sort. It suggests the person reduced to making it has nothing of substance to contribute.
Ellusionst discussing the Arcane Playing cards: "Michaelangelo took four years to create the Sistine Chapel masterpiece... these took five."

Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes: "You know Einstein got bad grades as a kid? Well, mine are even worse!"
magicfish
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Quote:
On Jan 19, 2019, Rupert Pupkin wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 19, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 19, 2019, Rupert Pupkin wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 19, 2019, HeronsHorse wrote:
You jump in with aggression, derail the conversation and still keep on coming back to have the last word.
How very mature.
Go on then, have it.
Smile


Aggression? Where? All I see is even-keeled, well reasoned disagreement.

Ok. Now I know you are a troll.


Show me where I'm wrong.

Ok I will. Then I'll be done here.

An anonymous member here is debating the merits of the Diagonal Palm Shift. The rest of us are fortunate enough to have two of the finest exponents of the move in the world tell us their thoughts. One of them is one of the foremost authorities on Erdnase I know of, the other is a sleight of hand expert who studied under Paul Chosse who many say had the best DPS ever.
So far so good.
Then our anonymous member moves from debating to telling them they are flat out wrong.
Then he tells them that it's because they don't use their heads to think.
And this is where you are wrong.
This is not well-reasoned disagreement.
It isn't well reasoned because these men have "thought" about the DPS more than probably anyone on this thread- perhaps entire forum, combined.
Happy?
Can't believe I wasted my time typing this.
Rupert Pupkin
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You're ommitting a critical point.

Cain didn't just say they were wrong. He said he disagreed with them, then told them WHY he disagreed with them.

This isn't an argument, it's a thoughtful conversation. Learn to deal with the difference.
magicfish
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Telling people who think deeply about a move, that they arent thinking about the move isn't thoughtful. It's just rude and disrespectful.
Learn the difference.
Now go ahead and snag the last word with more nonsense. You and your trolling cohorts have once again, made this a toxic place to discuss magic. I'm out.
Rupert Pupkin
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He said that's "sort of the problem" and was referring to DPS advocates in general. What is this kids' gloves BS? It was a simple rhetorical point. Jeepers.
Dorian Rhodell
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Like others here, I've been doing magic a long time. I've been mentored by one of the best and have put much thought into the DPS on my own.

There are certain circumstances, albeit rare, in which the DPS is the only logical solution. It's the most economical and imperceptible way to accomplish what I need to. Believe me, I've looked at almost every other option I can think of. And that's a lot. So I feel more than confident stating that I've done my homework and experimented over years to no avail for these circumstances. Maybe one day I'll discover a superior tool for what I'm doing and I'll adopt that. Until then...

Look, Cain doesn't like the move. No one is going to change his mind nor the way in which he verbalizes his opinions. That's fine and I'm okay with that.

What I'm not clear on is if he is implying that I (being an advocate of the move) do not "think". That is something I'm not okay with and I find to be, quite frankly, offensive.

Am I reading too much into this?

Best,

Dorian Rhodell
Rupert Pupkin
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Quote:
On Jan 19, 2019, Dorian Rhodell wrote:
Am I reading too much into this?


Yes. It's a card move.
Dorian Rhodell
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Well, I have to admit, you got me there. I owe you a beer.
Rupert Pupkin
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On Jan 19, 2019, Dorian Rhodell wrote:
Well, I have to admit, you got me there. I owe you a beer.


I knew this account would come in handy one day. Thanks, Dorian!
Dorian Rhodell
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But of course. One condition...no light beers.
Cain
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Quote:
On Jan 19, 2019, Dorian Rhodell wrote:
There are certain circumstances, albeit rare, in which the DPS is the only logical solution. It's the most economical and imperceptible way to accomplish what I need to. Believe me, I've looked at almost every other option I can think of. And that's a lot. So I feel more than confident stating that I've done my homework and experimented over years to no avail for these circumstances. Maybe one day I'll discover a superior tool for what I'm doing and I'll adopt that. Until then...


I'm not stating that everyone who loves the DPS is an idiot. I like and respect people who love the DPS (and some of my best friends are Black...). I'm just saying the sleight is absurdly over-rated, and someone new (especially) will put more into it than she gets out of it. It's a sleight that will sit in the metaphorical junk drawer. Now, granted, people have returned do their junk drawers and repurposed a gimmick for something... mildly amusing. I speculate the relative-popularity of the move is owed more to its paternity and difficulty rather than its usefulness. Just looking at this thread, advocates have said, "I hadn't performed the DPS in months"; "if I only need a card stolen from the center and placed into either hand, that I'll probably choose the side steal"; "there are certain circumstances, albeit rare, in which the DPS is the only logical solution." It's also, as I said earlier, "mechanically interesting."

What you're saying now is a vague restatement of your first post, wherein you argued:

Quote:
Like many things, the DPS DOES have a time and place and in some cases can not be beaten in terms of directness. For instance, suppose I wanted to have someone replace a selected card only to produce it from my pocket. The spectator places the card in the front and goes directly out the back. No other sleight can accomplish that without an extra action be it a cut and a palm or a spread etc.


This was shown to be false, as a side-steal could serve the same purpose (with more precious "efficiency" since it comes out the side whilst providing superior cover). I confess it also casts some doubt in my mind regarding your claim that a DPS is the only available method for whatever it is you use it to accomplish. We could, however, add other conditions to give the DPS the advantage: maybe we must take the card in the "left" hand, and we want the face against the palm. A side-steal cannot accomplish those things. Alternate moves can, so we must add yet more conditions: We do not want to break up the action of losing the card and palming the card, which, generally speaking, is a bad idea since it's one of the worst moments.

I'd also suggest that if a DPS is the "only logical" tool for a particular moment, one should think hard about changing the moment. There's the old saying about when you have a hammer, a lot of things start to look like nails. There are times when ATFUS is "logical," but even when that move "works" it's pretty gross. I wouldn't want to put myself in a corner where the DPS is the only available solution. As Billy Wilder has remarked, a third act problem is very often a first act problem.

All of that said, I'm seriously thinking about using the DPS in a trick I've been doing for years. Go ahead and call me a hypocrite, but it's almost perfect for a moment in the routine where I want spectators to believe I've done something sneaky.
Ellusionst discussing the Arcane Playing cards: "Michaelangelo took four years to create the Sistine Chapel masterpiece... these took five."

Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes: "You know Einstein got bad grades as a kid? Well, mine are even worse!"
Steven Keyl
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Stop taking me out of context, Cain. You're better than that. When I said, "I hadn't performed the DPS in months" it wasn't because I consider it an inferior move. It's because I hadn't performed anything during that time that required a palm.
Steven Keyl - The Human Whisperer!

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"If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause, and reflect." --Mark Twain
Yehuda
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There are other reasons why the diagonal palm shift may be better than the side steal (in the proper contexts) BESIDES for just which hand its delivered to.

A side steal, in all the explanations I have seen for it is a "taking" action. The diagonal Palm shift, depending on exactly how you interpret and understand the text (and there are differences of opinion on this) MAY be more of a "leaving" action, thus making the left hand in a DPS less suspicious than the right hand in a side steal, in my opinion. Again, some say the left hand also does some of the action during a DPS, but it's still not ALL of the action.

Just my thoughts and my opinion,

Yehuda
Cain
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Quote:
On Jan 20, 2019, Steven Keyl wrote:
Stop taking me out of context, Cain. You're better than that. When I said, "I hadn't performed the DPS in months" it wasn't because I consider it an inferior move.


I never implied that you did. The two instances I've quoted you have been in the context of usefulness, not inferiority.

Quote:
It's because I hadn't performed anything during that time that required a palm.


You should perform/palm more often. You're good at it.
Ellusionst discussing the Arcane Playing cards: "Michaelangelo took four years to create the Sistine Chapel masterpiece... these took five."

Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes: "You know Einstein got bad grades as a kid? Well, mine are even worse!"
Steven Keyl
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Thanks, man! Wait a minute... Am I being punk'd? Smile
Steven Keyl - The Human Whisperer!

Come visit Magic Book Report.com!

"If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause, and reflect." --Mark Twain
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