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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The spooky, the mysterious...the bizarre! » » MagicArtifacts.com ?? (11 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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the Sponge
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Quote:
On Oct 24, 2018, afinemesh wrote:
That's your opinion. And, I've given mine.

As you state, let's see if anyone else has anything to say.



Quote:
On Oct 24, 2018, the Sponge wrote:
Quote:
On Oct 23, 2018, afinemesh wrote:
They resemble OE pieces, but are not OE pieces. I don't see what the problem is.


Looking at ebay I see lots of magic coming from China that "resembles" certain effects but are not those effects. You cool with that too?
Someone made some cards that "resembled" elite cuss cards but were not elite cuss cards. No problem, right?
Maybe I'll make an effect with musket balls and a box. It'll "resemble" a Gemini Effects effect, but will not be. No problem, right?
the Sponge
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On Oct 24, 2018, Sean Gem wrote:

Never said it could be copyrighted, nor mentioned the legality behind it. I’m talking simply about what’s right and what’s wrong, and maybe more so about what’s creative and what’s not. We’re comparing an electronic door knocker to an electronic door knocker.....with a similar design, a similar shape, and a similar stand. The various spirit bells I've seen at least have differing designs that make them unique.

he's even calling it the same thing!

and not just this knocker....
https://www.magicartifacts.com/product/1692-salem-witch-box/
https://www.magicartifacts.com/product/departed/
Wizard of Oz
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Boy oh boy this is a thin line, and I don't want to walk it. But both sides of the argument have merit I think depending on the back story.

First, is this the creator who Rick introduced after everyone else refused to work for him? If so, how does he figure into claiming the reproduction rights to these effects? "The Departed" is "The Departed." It is a modern effect with a distinct plot, characterization, and concept that originated from Outlaw Effects. Does Rick still have "ownership" of this effect, (I put that in quotes because I could pretty much guarantee there is no legal copyright or patent)? Or did he ever? Is it Tim's creation? So many questions.

Still, in the instance of The Departed prop and effect - for the sake of discussion - I liken recreating it and selling it as offering a NEW version of Dean's Box. That prop was, and is, a unique creation and plot. Like The Departed, which took the Spirit Bell to another level, Dean's Box evolved the Spirit Cabinet. There are plenty of blatant knock-offs of Dean's Box, but that's not the issue here. The issue is re-issuing a unique creation and plot with different manufacturing. If done with permission of the original creator, or estate...cool. If not, well, again we have a very thin line.

Regarding the mentions of classic effects, props, and plots like the spirit bell, and OOTW...very sound examples...we probably need to discuss timetables, legalities, and our own honor system - or lack thereof - in magic.

Adding more mud to the mix, look at all of the tiring versions of the smoke at your fingertips concept. I count at least a half dozen expensive units that claimed to be the best. The are all unique indeed, but who was the first to think of this idea? And does it matter?

As I began, I end. This is a very fine line, and I prefer to walk along side it and offer non-judgemental observations.
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
Mad0hatter
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Gemini Artifacts has acquired the rights to several of Outlaws effects, how do we know this isn't another such case? Roth's name is basically mud in most circles selling rights to trust-able dealers would be his best chance to keep making money.
Vic Nadata
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I think the issue is even if Dr. X purchased the rights to produce these, they were not Outlaws to sell.

These were made by Tim and Karl and they still hold the rights to produce them.

Same has happened to me from Outlaw, when that happened (if some recall) I did not produce them and actually gave the rights back to the rightful owner.

This is obviously not a design change, but a copy all the way down to the exact name.
Sean Xem
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Quote:
On Oct 25, 2018, Vic Nadata wrote:

This is obviously not a design change, but a copy all the way down to the exact name.


Exactly, Vic.

Which is why I’m perplexed that people in the community are commenting that this is OK. Even IF it is legally Ok, does that make it right?

Not trying to stir the pot here......just have an immense amount of respect for our creators
cocomax
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In order for a design to belong to a company that company must have have the design work done by paid employees and I was never was an employee of Outlaw. Outlaw never paid me to design anything, so my designs still belong to myself and Karl still owns his designs. Outlaw was only the store that sold them and not the designer or builder.

Not only did Rick act like he owned everything I designed he acted like he owned me. He has sold "rights" to my items to people along with the "rights to have Tim build the item". He would guarantee that I would build the items for the new "rights" holder at a crazy low price that Rick and the new rights holder set. All this without me knowing about it, until after the deal was done. That all smells like slavery to me.

After I left Outlaw Rick did in fact set out to copy all my designs and continue to sell them, without me. The plan was Dr X (MagicArtifacts.com) was to make copies of what Karl and myself supplied Outlaw in the past.

Yes, I do own my designs, however because I do not have a patent on the designs I can not use the law to protect my designs. Other builders can make copies of my designs and I am powerless to stop them.

MagicArtifacts owns their designs as well.

I am a very skilled builder and if I wanted I could start building copies of other builders products, I might be able to build a much better version. These would be my designs, but also copies of another persons work at the same time. Unless the builder I am coping have a patent that I am breaking there is nothing they can do to stop me. I do not behave in such a manor because I have respect for other builders and want them to do well. I even help other builders. I have helped many other builders solve complex problems and find the parts they needed without getting paid, most builders in the magic community I consider good friends.

When another builder shows me little or no respect, I make a note of that.
scottishpiper51
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I honestly didn’t know the details of who owns the rights to produce these props.

While I support the continued evolution of our Art through innovation that is often based on established effects/props, I certainly don’t support the outright theft of creative property.

It pains me to see this happening.
cocomax
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I have the highest respect for Gemini Artifacts as an example of how to do things in a respectful and honest manor.

Looking at the Gemini web site you can clearly see, these things are Tim Wisseman items, these are Vic's items, and these are BC's items . . .
Everything is as clear as can be, there is no question as to who owns the rights to what.

Plus Vic is one of the most honest and fair minded person I have ever done business with.
scottishpiper51
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Quote:
On Oct 25, 2018, cocomax wrote:
I have the highest respect for Gemini Artifacts as an example of how to do things in a respectful and honest manor.

Looking at the Gemini web site you can clearly see, these things are Tim Wisseman items, these are Vic's items, and these are BC's items . . .
Everything is as clear as can be, there is no question as to who owns the rights to what.

Plus Vic is one of the most honest and fair minded person I have ever done business with.


I wholeheartedly agree.
Sean Xem
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Quote:
On Nov 2, 2018, the Sponge wrote:

oh, btw... a birdie told me he also sells a "key box" that holds 4 keys and some books. Very creative & original.

s


What’s the effect called? Boney Latch Mindsick Institute?? Or “Muna ‘37, ‘38, ‘39?
Winks
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OK, I will likely take some heat for this, but so be it. I purchased a Knocker from Magick Artifacts (Chris Sipes). I know some of you feel he has produced items based on others' ideas. I didn't see it that way (how many versions of Out Of This World are out there - and still being made!!). My point is that Chris has produced an excellent product with exemplary customer service. Chris went way out of his way to make sure this one was working (the USPS damaged the first one and it didn't work when received - Chris paid for it to be sent back), even building a special shipping box for it and spending his Sunday afternoon making sure everything was working ok. He has made several major improvements over the one I saw that Roth had at ECSS several years ago. I am very pleased.

Would I buy from Magick Artifacts again? Yes. So, for any who were worried that he was in collusion with Roth or that the results would be the same, not with me they weren't. I look forward to what else he produces.
Godzilla
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WOW, nothing changes on Café ! My post on here, vanished !!!
"If you watch Godzilla backwards, it's about a big ass lizard who helps rebuild a half burnt-down city, then moonwalks back into the ocean"
Lo Pan
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Yup - mine too - and many other valid concerns of other users - it’s sad
Darkness
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The fact is Chris Sipes aka Dr. X, was initially commissioned by Rick Roth’s Outlaw, to knock off Tims ideas and designs, period. The intention was to carry on the product line when Tim left. Even though Roth and Sipes had no right to copy Tims creations. Tim didn't work for outlaw the same as I don’t work for Vic. We make our own stuff and advertise it on their website. If I leave Vic you think he is going to get some other guy to copy my work and resell it? Yet people support Chris and buy his stuff?

Then when Outlaw imploded Sipes continued to manufacture Tims props, name and all, like he did at Outlaw. But now on his own website. These were not new ideas to Chris, he was just continuing copying Tims stuff like he had the right, Just because he was doing it before. This is all common knowledge and true. What part of any of that is fair or reasonable to the community? And on top of it, we are silenced? Are we not allow to speak the facts? And yes these are facts not acusations.

These are expensive, high quality, hand made items. When this kind of thing happens it hurts our industry. Creators will go further underground to protect the good stuff. You will be left with knock offs and second tier items.

And then we have another guy who supported Chris to sell on his site, until only very recently, after it imploded. He told me he had no clue about Chris Sipes copying Tims stuff. Like we have a lot of top tier suppliers and a guy who has serious ties in the industry as a creator, has no clue about other creators? In this micro small community? How can you trust or believe in people like that? I asked him to come here to denounce this behavior a week ago and he refuses. Yet others partner with this guy as he maintains a member in good standing?

We should not celebrate or encourage this negative behavior. I hope I am entitled to these comments and opinions.
IAIN
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Hear hear darkness...
I've asked to be banned
Vic Nadata
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Omg Amen!
Sean Xem
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Agreed agreed agreed, Darkness! Thank you for being brave enough to point this stuff out.

And my last 2 recent posts have vanished as well (Poof!)
Winks
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What about facts? Do they count? Tim Wissman did make the Knocker before Chris Sipes. Claude Alexander Conlin made the Knocker before Tim. Chris Sipes received the OK from Tim Wissman to go ahead and make his version of the Knocker.
the Sponge
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Quote:
On Nov 30, 2018, Winks wrote:
What about facts? Do they count? Tim Wissman did make the Knocker before Chris Sipes. Claude Alexander Conlin made the Knocker before Tim. Chris Sipes received the OK from Tim Wissman to go ahead and make his version of the Knocker.

Facts?? There have been several pointed out you ignore/dismiss/other?

No one would confuse Tim's with Alexander's. You're hung up on the trick. It's more than that. Think of it as Art. Visually, it's a direct copy! The name - a copy, the method - same. Why aren't these items visible on the website anymore? (and it's NOT JUST THE KNOCKER) We know he is selling them- you told us so. What does that say? Darkness' assessment of why Dr. X started building is true.

He got the ok? said who, Chris? Notice he never came here to defend/address the situation. Funny, I don't see Tim mentioning that in his two posts in this thread. What does that tell you?

Finally, if Darkness is wrong, where is Chris' support? Where is the outrage people are falsely talking bad about him? It's mainly you. Look what Tim wrote, what Vic wrote.

I think deep down (or not so deep) you really know what's up.

As long as product is being delivered, few care.
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The spooky, the mysterious...the bizarre! » » MagicArtifacts.com ?? (11 Likes)
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