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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Right or Wrong? » » Sexually objectifying female spectators and assistants (36 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Jonathan Townsend
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@landmark - it's not about you. Let's see if there's privilege in play here.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Aus
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Quote:
On Dec 30, 2018, magicalaurie wrote:
In my opinion, you've bypassed the very real issue here, Aus. I don't like "isms", generally, because I feel they tend to be divisive rather than inclusive. But having acknowledged the true definition of the term "feminism", where do you suppose it sprang from? For you to decide all women are disingenuous is to treat sincere women as unfairly as sincere men have been treated by those leaping to fear and hate instead of understanding and compassion.


No one said any of this was right and reasonable, if anything, what can be said about it is it's understandable. What we are boiling down to now is the boy who cried wolf syndrome where feminism continues to propagate that men are perpetrators under their patriarchal doctrine. We have taken up the olive branch of solidarity before and we have been burnt badly by it and men learning from that mistake are now falling into defensive positions. None of this is proactive it's reactive, and if feminism wants to see the reason for that, all it has to do is look in the mirror.

Quote:
But having acknowledged the true definition of the term "feminism", where do you suppose it sprang from?


To put simply, a lie, maybe this video might be an elaboration on that point.





Magically

Aus
magicalaurie
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Thank you for sharing, Aus. I think that's helpful information.
"Every thought you think, word you speak, and action you take proceeds from either love or fear. Peace and upset, innocence and guilt, healing and illness all spring from that one fundamental choice." Alan Cohen
Senor Fabuloso
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Laurie, helpful how? Just curious to know what may have changed for you, with that video posting?
No matter how many times you say the wrong thing, it will NEVER be right.

If I'm not responding to you? It's because you're a TROLL!
magicalaurie
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Helpful as in it provides insight that aids in understanding what's inspired his comments on the issue and it's educational info in and of itself, as well.
"Every thought you think, word you speak, and action you take proceeds from either love or fear. Peace and upset, innocence and guilt, healing and illness all spring from that one fundamental choice." Alan Cohen
Dougini
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Quote:
On Dec 30, 2018, magicalaurie wrote:
...As if it was completely normal for grown men to be discussing that magicalaurie was some guy hiding behind a picture of Laurie Telgen at the Magic Café. As if it was impossible magicalaurie could just be magicalaurie.

I'm real. I've been treated as though I don't exist by more than one man on this forum and in ways that I've allowed to hurt me immensely.


Darn right you're REAL! I consider you a friend. Remember our discussion about your cow? I cannot imagine ANYONE denying you (or your sister) are a real and a wonderful woman! I like your magic. Ya know...I'm embarrassed by that behavior. It makes us ALL look bad. Some "guy" posing as a woman on a forum? It happens. But in this case, I will stand with Laurie. She is VERY real. We share a love for animals. We share love for magic. No one, and I mean NO ONE will get away with denying her existence.

Doug
Senor Fabuloso
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On Dec 31, 2018, Dougini wrote:
Some "guy" posing as a woman on a forum? It happens.
Doug


More often than you think, Doug.
No matter how many times you say the wrong thing, it will NEVER be right.

If I'm not responding to you? It's because you're a TROLL!
Dougini
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Quote:
On Dec 31, 2018, Senor Fabuloso wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 31, 2018, Dougini wrote:
Some "guy" posing as a woman on a forum? It happens.
Doug


More often than you think, Doug.


And that, my friend, disgusts me TO THE CORE! Nothing one can do. So...I shake my head. RUEFULLY!

Doug
Senor Fabuloso
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I'm not disgusted just aware, that all is not as it seems on the net. It's that awareness that would have me shocked by ANYONE being who they say they are online and TRULY being the person in realtime. I think that may be what happened in the case of Laurie's experience? Idk I wasn't there but I offer it as a possibility and gentler, explanation of why and how she was treated the way she was. Or the guys could have just been jerks? It happens. Either way, to paint all men, with such a wide brush as to think us all sexist, is a mistake.
No matter how many times you say the wrong thing, it will NEVER be right.

If I'm not responding to you? It's because you're a TROLL!
Aus
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Quote:
On Dec 29, 2018, Melies wrote:
I think the problem with any online forum of this kind is that it prevents the kind of human-to-human exchange that can lead to genuine understanding, and to the "Aha!" moment when people on different sides of an issue can find common ground. But this conversation is particularly maddening, because one side in the debate continually appeals not to reason or fact, but to common, ugly prejudice, while meanwhile closing itself to any counter-factual historical or sociological piece of evidence that doesn't jibe with its proponents' preexisting biases.


I think the problem is your strawmanning of our opinions being nothing more then women blaming or prejudice, like the following comment which I assume refers to a previous post I made:

Quote:
the fact that some women allow themselves to be made into pin-ups or models or porn stars, etc., to please straight men, is evidence that women as a class consent to such behaviour--and furthermore are not (as a class) disadvantaged by it.


Your mistake here was to assume that the context of my post was indulging in some sort of nadir fallacy which is to say I'm judging women as a group based on the worst members of that group, so by extension that is representative of the entire group. My intention, if you had time to ask, was to bring further diversity into this discussion and that was what part women play in terms the objectification process and how we would deal with women's AGENCY TO CHOOSE THIS OBJECTIFYING BEHAVIOUR. This to me is a natural extraction of the objectified and sexualised female assistant trope that you say has existed in magic from the dawn of time. Also, my questions of the origin of objectification were in an effort to further define the source of objectification and it's many forms so we can get to the root of the problem. My questions were not intended as accusatory but exploratory in nature.

But let's be honest here, you're not interested in any self-reflection in the same way you expect us to be, otherwise, you would have spoken up on danaruns attempt to squirrel further discussion of Wendy's comments about women's agency and empowerment behind closed doors for exclusivity among the proverbial sisterhood. You have set the parameters of this topic with an agenda of what MEN say, what MEN do and what MEN think rather than the holistic perspective of all related issues that are reflective of a complicated and multifaceted topic. You're not here on good faith or for open discussion, you're here with an agenda, to point the finger and to preach, so please save us your diatribe about us and our biases and being closed minded, and when you can practice what you preach then we can start talking in good faith. Until then don't waste our time.


Quote:
It is quite striking to me how quickly this thread has devolved into blaming *women* for the fact that they are treated as subordinates in society--including in the magic community. Yeah, and it was the fault of Africans to allow themselves to be sold into slavery, and it was the fault of gays that they had their heads smashed in by cops and were driven to suicide in the pre-Stonewall period, and it was the fault of the Jews that the Nazis rounded them up and sent them to points East, etc. etc. The reason I started this thread was merely to say that we in this community, both men and women, yes, but particularly men, have a responsibility to change our sexist culture and to make it more inclusive and more in line with basic principles of equity and justice. And look what a firestorm that modest proposal ignited!


Again without the context of our points, you're indulging in a False equivalence fallacy of our positions. Let's take your African slavery example, slavery among Africans was a common practice among Sub Saharan Africans before the involvement of the Arabs, Berbers and Europeans. There were three types: those who were slaves through conquest, those who were slaves due to unpaid debts, or those whose parents gave them as slaves to tribal chiefs. Chieftains would barter their slaves to Arab, Berber, Ottoman or European buyers for rum, spices, cloth or other goods. Selling captives or prisoners was commonly practised among Africans, Turks, Berbers and Arabs during that era.

Now, this is not victim blaming this is a historical fact and if you don't believe me do a google search and look it up yourself. Now in saying that, am I saying that all Africans are at complete fault of the slave trade? No, I'm not. Am I saying Africans played a role in Slavery? Yes, I am. Could have Africans contributed to the problem of slavery? Yes, they possibly did.

The point I'm making here is your feminist dogma makes you completely void of any sense of nuance at all, and the fact you can't see it only proves my point. How do you propose to get to the root of a matter when you can't even see the forest through the trees.


Quote:
There seem to me two main problems with this "debate." The first is that the men participating in it fundamentally don't seem to respect women, and therefore cannot tolerate anyone who shines a light on regressive attitudes they simply take for granted, finding it just too threatening to examine their own beliefs or to question the status quo of society at large. The second, which is an outcrop of the first, is that the people engaging in this discussion have either never been exposed to feminist thought or have simply never bothered to read any of it. Yet Simone de Beauvoir wrote "The Second Sex" way back in 1949, and since then there have been literally thousands of other books on the subject, not one of which, I am sure, has been read by most of the people who have weighed in on this subject. How odd is that? Imagine someone who had never studied engineering or math, say, and who didn't know the difference between Newton and Olivia Newton-John, who nevertheless went online and began pontificating about the best way to build bridges or spaceships. How could anyone who actually was an engineer, and knew something about the subject, have a conversation with them about anything engineering-related? Meanwhile, our Know-Nothing continues to pontificate as a Know It All. Of *course* one can build a jet engine out of brittle materials ("sexual objectification is in the eye of the beholder"), of *course* bridges can be built without thought being given to structural frequency ("women have only themselves to blame if someone is insulting them or discriminating against them"), of *course* computers can run on orange juice ("women are as much to blame as men for sexism"), etc. But the self-made "expert" knows better than the one who really knows. And the man doesn't need to listen to, or learn from, the woman's experiences or perspective, because he knows in advance of every possible fact that he is right.


So basically you're saying that without reading feminist literature and accepting their viewpoints as facts we can't have a valued opinion or substantive grasp on the issue and we are ignorant fools who don't know what we are talking about. It must be illuminating being the only one holding all the answers and the facts. How arrogant.


Quote:
But continuing to argue publicly with persons who are not operating in good faith, and who clearly don't give a *** about matters of justice, does seem tragically pointless.


Finally, something we do agree on, come back when your attitude is conducive to constructive debate, then we'll talk.

Magically

Aus
TomB
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Funny, I saw the comic without the caption and wondered why is it offensive. It was not offensive until the comic put a stereotypical caption meant to cause faux outrage.

Scantily clad women used as assistants are often the wife of the magician. Sometimes the future wife. It's quite an assumption to say these people are being mistreated. It is also very dangerous.

I think you have to look at the target audience. If it is mostly young males, then sex sells. Its basic advertising. You do not see beer commercials without young, attractive women. This is human nature. No one is ever going to change that.

I do not see disrespectful magicians chasing away women. I just think most females have no interest in being a magician. You might have stage fright. You need to practice a million times something that may never be useful. You need the desire to want to trick someone. You need money to buy magic toys. There are many reasons why most women are not into magic. And that is not necessarily a bad thing.

I am an engineer. There are not that many female engineers either. Its not because they are objectified. Females typically are more nurturing and want to be nurses, rather than solving math problems. That's not to say females cannot, just most prefer not to.

I have taught my kids math on a much higher level than the school does. I also teach them to wonder the impossible. I have taught them magic is great for entertaining. With engineering, the hardest part is coming up with the idea. Making the impossible possible is innovation. I would argue magic also needs new ideas and new innovation.

My two young daughters are performing magic. Every magician they have come in contact with has given them so much support. In fact, the red carpet treatment is given to them because they are females.

I disagree that magicians need a metoo movement. Unless there are tons of rapes going on that I am unaware of, then I can see why so many magicians are offended. Most of the guys I have seen are stand up guys that would aid in stopping any mistreatment of women.
TStone
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Quote:
On Jul 21, 2019, TomB wrote:
Females typically are more nurturing and want to be nurses, rather than solving math problems.

That sounds pretty sexist. And it doesn't agree with the statistics where I live. Here, of all who take university degrees in natural science, math and computer science; 45% are women.
WitchDocChris
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There are not that many female engineers either. Its not because they are objectified.


Really? Women in STEM aren't objectified? Are you really going to try that angle?

Quote:
I do not see disrespectful magicians chasing away women.


Then you are not paying attention.
Christopher
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Dannydoyle
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The world is changing. Hopefully.

Attitudes have been in flux since the beginning of time. Look at a 1950's sitcom. Attitudes about LIFE have changed. Look at what you can and can not say on television and the difference between now and then.

LONG time ago women in general as an accepted practice were not seen as equal partners. OK this can not be judged by the standards we have today for a way to look at life. Now we are evolving as a society and women (Rightfully so.) are simply people and men are simply people and this is how it should be. (We can throw race into this along with sexual preference as well.)

BUT this is not an overnight process is it? I mean you can't take centuries of conditioning and just throw it out the window. So the process is what it is. Yes it needs to be recognized, but I believe that it gets set back considerably when one looks for boogie men in every case and shouts about it every turn. There are times it is NOT happening.

Now to be fair it must be INCREDIBLY frustrating to be on the receiving end of this. I mean even if you perceive incorrectly that you are on the receiving end it must be frustrating. No doubt. I have not ever actually been on that end of things so I can only imagine. I mean I have never been a victim of it in any way that is meaningful. I could concoct some bs story about how I "felt" I was. But in the end it is a bs story I concocted because it has never happened in a way that affected my life. I try to go through life with this in mind. My fortunate happenstance of birth might not (Heck IS not.) shared by everyone. I was not born wealthy, but being a white male at the time I was born was certainly an advantage. Taking a second to think about this always helps me to try to understand the position of others. We all have different life experience.

In the end the solution is always to bring others up, not drag others down.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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