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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Right or Wrong? » » Sexually objectifying female spectators and assistants (30 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Senor Fabuloso
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On Dec 21, 2018, WitchDocChris wrote:

On the opposite end of things, the people who make the effort to change are providing examples and representation for those who have felt oppressed for decades. So at least there's that.


Feelings are not facts. Subjectively trying to control my actions based on ones feeling, is totalitarianism.
No matter how many times you say the wrong thing, it will NEVER be right.

If I'm not responding to you? It's because you're a TROLL!
WitchDocChris
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No. Deciding that your opinion is what is true is totalitarian.

If the women are saying "We feel oppressed" and "We don't like the jokes and comments men make", men don't get to decide that those women are wrong.

One's right to behave as they choose ends at the point it affects someone else. You don't get to decide that you didn't hurt someone.
Christopher
Witch Doctor

Psycho Seance book: https://tinyurl.com/y873bbr4
Senor Fabuloso
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On Dec 21, 2018, WitchDocChris wrote:

One's right to behave as they choose ends at the point it affects someone else. You don't get to decide that you didn't hurt someone.


Hurt again is subjective and what so called hurts one may not hurt someone else. To blanketly condemn speech based on ones feelings, is not only tyrannical but fascistic. I get to decide how I live. If I choose to be an ahole, there will be consequences. If I choose conformity, there will be consequences. The key is that I CHOOSE not you or the state.

We can talk all day about ones so called hurt feeling placing all the emphases on the so called offender. Or we can realize that different people see thing differently and concentrate on the so called victim. Maybe they need a thicker skin? Or need to deal with their daddy issues in therapy? Or whatever they need to do to feel better? But the onus is on them, not me to accommodate them unless I CHOOSE to. They need to be responsible for themselves and their own, emotional well being.
No matter how many times you say the wrong thing, it will NEVER be right.

If I'm not responding to you? It's because you're a TROLL!
Dannydoyle
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On Dec 21, 2018, WitchDocChris wrote:

One's right to behave as they choose ends at the point it affects someone else. You don't get to decide that you didn't hurt someone.

Please document this claim for me.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
danaruns
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Senor Fabuloso and Danny Doyle have done a wonderful job of demonstrating the problem. Well done, guys. You may now go back to being decent human beings.
"Dana Douglas is the greatest magician alive. Plus, I'm drunk." -- Foster Brooks
danaruns
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On Dec 21, 2018, Senor Fabuloso wrote:

Hurt again is subjective and what so called hurts one may not hurt someone else. To blanketly condemn speech based on ones feelings, is not only tyrannical but fascistic. I get to decide how I live. If I choose to be an ahole, there will be consequences. If I choose conformity, there will be consequences. The key is that I CHOOSE not you or the state.

We can talk all day about ones so called hurt feeling placing all the emphases on the so called offender. Or we can realize that different people see thing differently and concentrate on the so called victim. Maybe they need a thicker skin? Or need to deal with their daddy issues in therapy? Or whatever they need to do to feel better? But the onus is on them, not me to accommodate them unless I CHOOSE to. They need to be responsible for themselves and their own, emotional well being.


So, if I go to magician meetings where I am consistently and universally treated like dog doo, the problem is mine? The onus is on me?

Asking for a friend.
"Dana Douglas is the greatest magician alive. Plus, I'm drunk." -- Foster Brooks
WitchDocChris
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On Dec 21, 2018, Dannydoyle wrote:
Please document this claim for me.


Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by this? I consider it a basic element of human decency to treat others with consideration.

Does the constitution count as documenting it? The right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?

If we expect rights for ourselves, we should expect those rights for everyone. If a woman really wants to be a magician, that is her pursuit of happiness. If the community treats her like a lesser person simply because of her gender/sex (which is frequently the case), that community is denying her right to pursue happiness.
Christopher
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Psycho Seance book: https://tinyurl.com/y873bbr4
WitchDocChris
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Quote:
On Dec 21, 2018, Senor Fabuloso wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 21, 2018, WitchDocChris wrote:

One's right to behave as they choose ends at the point it affects someone else. You don't get to decide that you didn't hurt someone.


Hurt again is subjective and what so called hurts one may not hurt someone else. To blanketly condemn speech based on ones feelings, is not only tyrannical but fascistic. I get to decide how I live. If I choose to be an ahole, there will be consequences. If I choose conformity, there will be consequences. The key is that I CHOOSE not you or the state.

We can talk all day about ones so called hurt feeling placing all the emphases on the so called offender. Or we can realize that different people see thing differently and concentrate on the so called victim. Maybe they need a thicker skin? Or need to deal with their daddy issues in therapy? Or whatever they need to do to feel better? But the onus is on them, not me to accommodate them unless I CHOOSE to. They need to be responsible for themselves and their own, emotional well being.


I'm not "blanketly condemning" speech based on my feelings. I'm saying that if you say something to someone, and that person says you hurt them, you did. Whether you feel that hurt is justified or not is irrelevant. You don't get to decide how they should feel - that would be imposing your opinion on them. Speaking of the magic community, there are quite a few women who have said many times that the men in this community often make them feel marginalized, uncomfortable, unaccepted, etc. Therefore - we don't get to say they're wrong. We can only work to fix it, or we will be continuing the problem.
Christopher
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Psycho Seance book: https://tinyurl.com/y873bbr4
Senor Fabuloso
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On Dec 21, 2018, WitchDocChris wrote:
Speaking of the magic community, there are quite a few women who have said many times that the men in this community often make them feel marginalized, uncomfortable, unaccepted, etc. Therefore - we don't get to say they're wrong.


Feeling something isn't the same, as it being so. FEELING ARE NOT FACTS.

To Dana, I have not only defended women who have been ACTUALLY treated like doo doo but have put quite a few men, in the hospital for such behavior. Being an ahole has consequences. But I have never been physical with anyone who wasn't physically threatening to anybody. Words can only hurt you if you give them the power to do so. At least feeling wise.

The so called adults in this thread might remember the childhood rhyme "sticks and stones". It would do wonders, for your emotional state.
No matter how many times you say the wrong thing, it will NEVER be right.

If I'm not responding to you? It's because you're a TROLL!
Dannydoyle
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On Dec 21, 2018, danaruns wrote:
Senor Fabuloso and Danny Doyle have done a wonderful job of demonstrating the problem. Well done, guys. You may now go back to being decent human beings.


THIS is the EXACT problem I was pointing out. THANK YOU for showing us it in action. I made a harmless, seasonal joke. I then followed it with a clip of a great comedian doing a semi related routine. Then you tell me I am demonstrating the problem LOL. HILARIOUS! Irony much?

When we get to the point where PC is so important that jokes can't be told we are losing the plot of freedom.

NOBODY has condoned sexual harassment. Not Even Senior I don't think. But go ahead be offended by whatever you like. That is your right.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Senor Fabuloso
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On Dec 21, 2018, danaruns wrote:

So, if I go to magician meetings where I am consistently and universally treated like dog doo, the problem is mine? The onus is on me?

Asking for a friend.


By telling you the truth, I am being your friend.

In the situation you describe, yes you are at fault because you continue going to that meeting. If? You truly are being treated badly, go to those in charge of the meeting and complain. If not, and all it is is your feelings, move on to another meeting. If there is no other meetings, start your own. There you can set the decorum rules and control what people say. Don't look for anything other than conformation bias in any controversy, as you will be in charge and those who don't conform, will be kicked out. You get to be as totalitarian, as you like.
No matter how many times you say the wrong thing, it will NEVER be right.

If I'm not responding to you? It's because you're a TROLL!
Senor Fabuloso
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On Dec 21, 2018, Dannydoyle wrote:

NOBODY has condoned sexual harassment. Not Even Senior I don't think.


Not only have I never advocated sexual harassment on ANYBODY male or female but have helped, anyone needing my help, in those situations. Sexual harassment is a crime and I take my civic duty, very seriously.
No matter how many times you say the wrong thing, it will NEVER be right.

If I'm not responding to you? It's because you're a TROLL!
Senor Fabuloso
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Quote:
On Dec 21, 2018, WitchDocChris wrote:
If a woman really wants to be a magician, that is her pursuit of happiness. If the community treats her like a lesser person simply because of her gender/sex (which is frequently the case), that community is denying her right to pursue happiness.


As a member of the community I AM HIGHLY OFFENDED BY THIS REMARK. Not only don't I treat women "lesser" in the magic community but I don't treat them any different in life.


So Chris, now that you have offended me, will you keep to your word, being considerate? Or just go on offending me?
No matter how many times you say the wrong thing, it will NEVER be right.

If I'm not responding to you? It's because you're a TROLL!
Melies
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Exactly, Dana: these guys are simply demonstrating the problem. We could go on all day responding to these ill-considered and thoughtless quips, equal parts malice and willful ignorance, but it would be a waste of time and virtual ink. There are two kinds of people, those who are interested in justice, and those who either don't give a *** about it, or who benefit from injustice themselves and want to keep it that way. I'll leave it to others to sort Danny and Fabuloso into which side they fall on. I will only say that what takes the cake for me is this one from not-so-Fabuloso, who writes: "In the situation you describe, yes you are at fault because you continue going to that meeting. ... You truly are being treated badly, go to those in charge of the meeting and complain. If not, and all it is is your feelings, move on to another meeting." Yeah, right. Sexism and racism are just "feelings" which "sensitive people" experience, rather than, say, institutional and discursive and affective, etc., structural features of society. And when a woman is being harassed or belittled or whatever, it's not on the MEN to change their behavior, but on the women to LEAVE. I would just note that this ugly attitude perfectly mirrors the attitude of many men (and some women) who have responded to allegations of rape, sexual harassment, etc., in the workplace via the #MeToo movement by blaming the victim.
Senor Fabuloso
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Idiotic! Show me how a cartoon is the same as "allegations of rape, sexual harassment, etc., in the workplace via the #MeToo movement by blaming the victim." Nonsense like this is what has people FEELING like they can't speak publicly or anyplace else.

Danny, you want to get in line so we can goose step along with the rest of them?
No matter how many times you say the wrong thing, it will NEVER be right.

If I'm not responding to you? It's because you're a TROLL!
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Dec 21, 2018, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 21, 2018, WitchDocChris wrote:

One's right to behave as they choose ends at the point it affects someone else. You don't get to decide that you didn't hurt someone.

Please document this claim for me.


A person's right to behave has nothing to do with how it affects others. The Nazi party won the right to march in Skokie Illinois. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_S......f_Skokie

Nobody can be denied the right to assemble and freedom of speech without some serious litigation. I am not saying a word about what is the right or wrong side of any argument. I am saying that the very idea that once it affects someone else is not the standard in the least.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Dec 21, 2018, Senor Fabuloso wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 21, 2018, Dannydoyle wrote:

NOBODY has condoned sexual harassment. Not Even Senior I don't think.


Not only have I never advocated sexual harassment on ANYBODY male or female but have helped, anyone needing my help, in those situations. Sexual harassment is a crime and I take my civic duty, very seriously.


Of course you have not. Yet people cherry pick 2 sentences on the internet to paint you with the wide brush for their own convenience.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Melies
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Got to love it: challenging sexism in our community is now equivalent to Nazism. Done here.
Senor Fabuloso
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Good. You see how it works? If your uncomfortable, you get to leave.
No matter how many times you say the wrong thing, it will NEVER be right.

If I'm not responding to you? It's because you're a TROLL!
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Dec 21, 2018, Melies wrote:
Exactly, Dana: these guys are simply demonstrating the problem. We could go on all day responding to these ill-considered and thoughtless quips, equal parts malice and willful ignorance, but it would be a waste of time and virtual ink. There are two kinds of people, those who are interested in justice, and those who either don't give a *** about it, or who benefit from injustice themselves and want to keep it that way. I'll leave it to others to sort Danny and Fabuloso into which side they fall on. I will only say that what takes the cake for me is this one from not-so-Fabuloso, who writes: "In the situation you describe, yes you are at fault because you continue going to that meeting. ... You truly are being treated badly, go to those in charge of the meeting and complain. If not, and all it is is your feelings, move on to another meeting." Yeah, right. Sexism and racism are just "feelings" which "sensitive people" experience, rather than, say, institutional and discursive and affective, etc., structural features of society. And when a woman is being harassed or belittled or whatever, it's not on the MEN to change their behavior, but on the women to LEAVE. I would just note that this ugly attitude perfectly mirrors the attitude of many men (and some women) who have responded to allegations of rape, sexual harassment, etc., in the workplace via the #MeToo movement by blaming the victim.


How DARE you come in here after a few posts and pretend you know me. You are really wayyyyy off base with what you are accusing me of and are SYMPTOMATIC OF THE PROBLEM. You cherry pick and then you just choose to be offended and then assume the rest of what you think I am saying.

It is the internet, and things can get mixed up. I am not going to jump on you about anything you have said and I am going to give you a chance to step back and maybe learn a little about who I am just so stupid flame wars don't happen for no reason. But suffice as to say you have me pegged dead wrong. If you are willing to step out of your ego and your preconceived notions for a bit you may be able to see that. If not then cool it won't be a shock.

I have NEVER said a thing about anyone in a magic club. I have NEVER said anyone should be treating anyone else like dog doo. I have never said it was the bully doing so is the one who should not change.

I will say that I think you are mixing several different things. For example it is the bullies RIGHT to treat people like dog doo. They are an idiot for doing it and it is anti social behavior, but it is their RIGHT to do it. Now that is all well and good until you get into a situation like a magic club that has a structure and has officers and should have a code of conduct. That club has the RIGHT not to allow that sort of behavior and if you show up you should have an expectation to be treated in a way that is proper. (I won't get into all of what that means but certainly equal is the benchmark.) If the club does not properly fix the problem, then what CAN you do about it? You can go join another club or a host of other options.

Now when you get to work it is an entirely different situation. Workplace crap like this requires laws to protect women and in reality legislation is probably a few decades in arrears. But in the workplace it is absolutely intolerable.

But something like a club, a private matter than you have the option and should use it, to go somewhere else. It is not your "fault" that something is happening. It is however your choice to stay. If it is not going to change and you stay it is still the bully who is wrong. "Should" it be different? Of course. Nobody disputes that. Is the person who is being treated badly in the wrong? Absolutely not. "Should" they keep subjecting themselves to such treatment? Well I personally would not. That is as far as I can go. "Would" I do what I can to make certain it stopped if I was somehow in the club or involved? ABSOLUTELY!

So go ahead and explain to me again how I am part of the problem.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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