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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Right or Wrong? » » Sexually objectifying female spectators and assistants (36 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Dannydoyle
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On Dec 24, 2018, Dannydoyle wrote:
Oh no not you.

Speaking of an unpopular position Harvard has taken on the gender wage gap myth.

https://fee.org/articles/harvard-study-g......d-women/


So you just want to ignore this part of it huh?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
danaruns
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Well, this thread certainly has taken a turn since the last time I visited.

So, this is about whether or not female spectators and assistants are in some manner sexually objectified in magic.

I'm guessing that means, for the spectator, the (male) magician making comments or somehow objectifying the volunteer's bodies; e.g., "Put this card where no one can see it," to a volunteer in a slinky or low-cut dress with no pockets. And for the assistant, it means having young, pretty assistants dress in bathing suits and heels, and parading them around the stage for the audience to enjoy. And I suppose implied in all that is a discussion of women's roles in magic, generally, in terms of sex and gender expectations and usage.

Now, where were we in terms of discussing that? Because when we are getting to calculations of wage disparity, it seems we've moved off-topic.
"Dana Douglas is the greatest magician alive. Plus, I'm drunk." -- Foster Brooks
Dannydoyle
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Of course.

But getting into accusations of people with an alternative opinion being the problem are directly on topic right? Hilarious, but transparent.
Danny Doyle
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Dannydoyle
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On Dec 21, 2018, danaruns wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 21, 2018, Dannydoyle wrote:
To speak for women not in the association? THAT is your job? Interesting.


Yes, I find it interesting, too. And inspiring. And a good deal of work, and listening, and studying, and leading. It is sometimes dispiriting, occasionally elating, often satisfying, and always an important responsibility. I get to speak with hundreds of magicians, and women and girls who want to become magicians, I produce and participate in performances, I write, and the worst part of it is that I have to negotiate the politics, the prejudices, and the tremendous inertia of culture. Hopefully, it all helps.

Here's a link to the senior thesis by Angela Sanchez that actually led to the creation of the WMA, if you're interested. https://angelamsanchezdotcom.files.wordp......2013.pdf It's a wonderful jumping off point for the discussion of how women in magic have been treated for the last hundred or so years.


OK so since the topic of you speaking for all women in and out of your association, when one posts that it is NOT the case why don't we talk about that for a second? Turns out a couple of women posted here who you do not speak for.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
danaruns
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Fine, Danny. Say what you want to say on that subject.
"Dana Douglas is the greatest magician alive. Plus, I'm drunk." -- Foster Brooks
magicalaurie
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Quote:
On Dec 26, 2018, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 24, 2018, Dannydoyle wrote:
Oh no not you.

Speaking of an unpopular position Harvard has taken on the gender wage gap myth.

https://fee.org/articles/harvard-study-g......d-women/


So you just want to ignore this part of it huh?


No, Danny, and I haven't. The article I followed with addresses points made in the article you linked to and expands on the issue.

"On Equal Pay Day, it’s also important to recognize the unpaid work women do." ...


"But, even as women are increasingly taking on a larger role in the paid workforce, they’re still expected to take on the bulk of chores, like laundry, cooking, cleaning and child care that allow households to function.

'It’s become much more equal, but with women still doing more unpaid work,' Parker said. The result: Whether by choice or not, men still end up doing more paid work. 'Women, even full-time working women, spend fewer hours on average doing paid work than their husbands or partners do. That may be due in part to the fact that there’s this expectation or default arrangement where they are doing more of the child care or housework.'" ...

"But the time women spend on unpaid work is affecting their individual careers and families as well."

"The assumption that women will take on child care and other responsibilities may mean that their subconsciously passed up for career opportunities, like more travel or international placements, that could lead both to career development and more money"...
"Every thought you think, word you speak, and action you take proceeds from either love or fear. Peace and upset, innocence and guilt, healing and illness all spring from that one fundamental choice." Alan Cohen
magicalaurie
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More:

https://www.oecd.org/dev/development-gen......work.pdf

"Gender inequality in unpaid care work is the missing link in the analysis of gender gaps in
labour outcomes, such as labour force participation, wages and job quality"
"Every thought you think, word you speak, and action you take proceeds from either love or fear. Peace and upset, innocence and guilt, healing and illness all spring from that one fundamental choice." Alan Cohen
Dannydoyle
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So why don't women just choose to cook less?

Isn't unpaid work a choice like any other? Simply choose not to have a family you cook for.

But I guess it is off topic.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dannydoyle
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On Dec 26, 2018, danaruns wrote:
Fine, Danny. Say what you want to say on that subject.

Point is you don't speak for all women in and out of your club.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
danaruns
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Quote:
On Dec 26, 2018, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 26, 2018, danaruns wrote:
Fine, Danny. Say what you want to say on that subject.

Point is you don't speak for all women in and out of your club.


Very obvious point taken. Of course, I don't claim that. I claim to advocate for women in general, both in and out of my organizations. Probably surprising to you, I completely agree with Wendy, and don't see what she says as contradicting what I said. Two things can be true at once.

Also, this isn't about "blame," no matter how hard Senor Fabuloso and others try to make it that way. Recognizing fact is separate and apart from assigning "blame," which is a judgment I have no desire to make. I simply want to change the way women are treated, and for men to recognize their roles historically in that area. Otherwise, there can be no change. This isn't a "me too" kind of thing. This is a "let's fix the problem" kind of thing.
"Dana Douglas is the greatest magician alive. Plus, I'm drunk." -- Foster Brooks
magicalaurie
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On Dec 26, 2018, Dannydoyle wrote:
So why don't women just choose to cook less?

Isn't unpaid work a choice like any other? Simply choose not to have a family you cook for.

But I guess it is off topic.


I think it is the very root of the topic. The article addresses how societal systems define and assign women by "feminine and reproductive" roles.

"On account of gendered social norms that view unpaid care work as a female prerogative, women across different regions, socio-economic classes and cultures spend an important part of their day on meeting the expectations of their domestic and reproductive roles"

"How society and policy makers address issues concerning care has important implications for the achievement of gender equality: they can either expand the capabilities and choices of women and men, or confine women to traditional roles associated with femininity and motherhood (Razavi, 2007). The unequal distribution of unpaid care work between women and men represents an infringement of women’s rights (UN, 2013) and also a brake on their economic empowerment."

"The day-to-day lives of women around the world share one important characteristic: unpaid care work is seen as a female responsibility."


What do you mean by: "Simply choose not to have a family you cook for." ?

What about those women who are denied opportunities because they are women who the opportunity provider assumes will want to have kids?

If a third party can be hired to do this work for remuneration, why can't a first party be remunerated for the same work?
"Every thought you think, word you speak, and action you take proceeds from either love or fear. Peace and upset, innocence and guilt, healing and illness all spring from that one fundamental choice." Alan Cohen
Dannydoyle
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On Dec 26, 2018, danaruns wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 26, 2018, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 26, 2018, danaruns wrote:
Fine, Danny. Say what you want to say on that subject.

Point is you don't speak for all women in and out of your club.

This isn't a "me too" kind of thing. This is a "let's fix the problem" kind of thing.


You certainly came across as assigning blame.

If this is your point, then progress can be made.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
magicalaurie
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To continue:

"Women and men’s opportunities and behaviours are determined as much by social institutions, including traditional gender roles and beliefs, as by the conditions of the communities and countries in which they live. Social institutions, such as formal and informal laws, social norms and practices, shape or restrict the decisions, choices and behaviours of groups, communities and individuals (Jütting et al., 2008). By defining which behaviours are deemed acceptable or unacceptable in a society, social institutions influence gender roles: in most societies, working for pay is considered a masculine task, while unpaid care work is seen as women’s domain."

"Reducing the level of discrimination in social institutions encourages gender roles to evolve allowing for more opportunities for the share of unpaid care work to be redistributed between the genders. Women are less associated with reproductive and domestic roles. Similarly, social norms open up new opportunities for men assuming domestic and care responsibilities."
"Every thought you think, word you speak, and action you take proceeds from either love or fear. Peace and upset, innocence and guilt, healing and illness all spring from that one fundamental choice." Alan Cohen
Dannydoyle
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On Dec 21, 2018, Melies wrote:
Exactly, Dana: these guys are simply demonstrating the problem. We could go on all day responding to these ill-considered and thoughtless quips, equal parts malice and willful ignorance, but it would be a waste of time and virtual ink. There are two kinds of people, those who are interested in justice, and those who either don't give a *** about it, or who benefit from injustice themselves and want to keep it that way. I'll leave it to others to sort Danny and Fabuloso into which side they fall on. I will only say that what takes the cake for me is this one from not-so-Fabuloso, who writes: "In the situation you describe, yes you are at fault because you continue going to that meeting. ... You truly are being treated badly, go to those in charge of the meeting and complain. If not, and all it is is your feelings, move on to another meeting." Yeah, right. Sexism and racism are just "feelings" which "sensitive people" experience, rather than, say, institutional and discursive and affective, etc., structural features of society. And when a woman is being harassed or belittled or whatever, it's not on the MEN to change their behavior, but on the women to LEAVE. I would just note that this ugly attitude perfectly mirrors the attitude of many men (and some women) who have responded to allegations of rape, sexual harassment, etc., in the workplace via the #MeToo movement by blaming the victim.


Ok so Dana is this assignment of blame? Because it very specifically seems to if you ask me.

Funny how she seems to say she is agreeing with you and toy don't refure it at all that I have seen.

And maybe if you tried to communicate without sarcastic barbs about "this is why there are so few women in magic" your message would be better received.

Oh and isn't that quip in and of itself assigning blame? Then when you say it again for sarcastic effect what was it?

Sorry but your story simply does not add up.
Danny Doyle
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Dannydoyle
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On Dec 26, 2018, magicalaurie wrote:
To continue:

"Women and men’s opportunities and behaviours are determined as much by social institutions, including traditional gender roles and beliefs, as by the conditions of the communities and countries in which they live. Social institutions, such as formal and informal laws, social norms and practices, shape or restrict the decisions, choices and behaviours of groups, communities and individuals (Jütting et al., 2008). By defining which behaviours are deemed acceptable or unacceptable in a society, social institutions influence gender roles: in most societies, working for pay is considered a masculine task, while unpaid care work is seen as women’s domain."

"Reducing the level of discrimination in social institutions encourages gender roles to evolve allowing for more opportunities for the share of unpaid care work to be redistributed between the genders. Women are less associated with reproductive and domestic roles. Similarly, social norms open up new opportunities for men assuming domestic and care responsibilities."


Are women forced into these rolls?
Danny Doyle
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magicalaurie
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Are men forced into their roles?

Continuing:

" Equal amounts of maternity and paternity leave increase women’s employment by increasing employer incentives to hire woman. In Sweden, for example, a minimum share of available parental leave is reserved to fathers on a ‘use it or lose it’ basis, encouraging an equal sharing of caring responsibilities.
 Family-friendly working conditions enable parents to balance their working hours and caring responsibilities. A flexible work schedule or teleworking allows women and men to choose working hours that better accommodate their caring responsibilities"
"Every thought you think, word you speak, and action you take proceeds from either love or fear. Peace and upset, innocence and guilt, healing and illness all spring from that one fundamental choice." Alan Cohen
magicalaurie
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"What are the consequences of excluding household production from national accounts?
 It leads to misestimating households’ material well-being and societies’ wealth."

"How can the time devoted to unpaid care work be valued?
 Input valuation gives a monetary value to the time devoted to unpaid care work using as cost of time either the market wage of the person who performed unpaid work (opportunity cost) or the market wage of a domestic worker if the family hired an external person (replacement cost).
 Output valuation gives a market-equivalent value to the public good produced"
"Every thought you think, word you speak, and action you take proceeds from either love or fear. Peace and upset, innocence and guilt, healing and illness all spring from that one fundamental choice." Alan Cohen
Dannydoyle
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Do you want to rant or discuss? Please let me know.

But essentially you think a value should be assigned for working at home for the family. How does one arrive at that value exactly?
Andplease don't quote or post links. Use your own thoughts.
Danny Doyle
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Aus
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Quote:
On Dec 26, 2018, danaruns wrote:
Well, this thread certainly has taken a turn since the last time I visited.

So, this is about whether or not female spectators and assistants are in some manner sexually objectified in magic.

I'm guessing that means, for the spectator, the (male) magician making comments or somehow objectifying the volunteer's bodies; e.g., "Put this card where no one can see it," to a volunteer in a slinky or low-cut dress with no pockets. And for the assistant, it means having young, pretty assistants dress in bathing suits and heels, and parading them around the stage for the audience to enjoy. And I suppose implied in all that is a discussion of women's roles in magic, generally, in terms of sex and gender expectations and usage.


Yes, and part of that discussion is women's agency to choose some of these things as my previous post highlights and how that image portrays to the overall perception of women in magic. A lot of outward finger pointing going here not very much of the discussion on self-empowerment in the fashion Wendy prescribes. When a more holistic perspective starts to happen then I might consider acknowledging our role in this issue, until then this seems nothing more than finger-pointing and men blaming.

Magically

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Round and around we go, where it stops nobody knows? Women and children are first to go into the lifeboats, where is the push for so called equality then? It really is comical and why at the height of what some call the women's movement, the best selling book was 50 Shades of Grey. How do women explain that? I'll attempt to answer the question from my own gender biased brain. Because as society pushes for gender neutral sexes, there is a deep longing for REAL men by women, in those same societies. While gender neutrality SEEMS like a good idea, it isn't because without gender specific roles in society, the sexes get confused about where they fit. And how does that help anyone know themselves or their purpose in life?
No matter how many times you say the wrong thing, it will NEVER be right.

If I'm not responding to you? It's because you're a TROLL!
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