Did Milli Vanilli lie or did they entertain?

Performing magic/mentalism requires using techniques of deception. Of course, there are many people who have used such techniques for nefarious purposes. I'm thinking of people like faith healers and fake psychics. On the other hand, the average magician/mentalist only uses techniques of deception for entertainment purposes, but they use techniques of deception nonetheless. If some people don't like that and interpret it as "lying" then sobeit, you can never please everyone.

I'm thinking con men (and women) of any stripe

I can not speak to this. I was not a fan prior to the revelation of the lip syncing.

To me the only thing you could get them for is being caught.

But you are talking about a different thing I believe. In song writing does one HAVE to experience the things they sing about? As opposed to faking the skill necessary to accomplish singing. I think songwriters are FULL of things they have never done. Singers sing songs about things they have never done often in the first person. Is this a "lie"? I believe there is a definite difference. But as I said the problem with them was getting caught.

So logically speaking we can deduce from your post Danny, that things are only wrong, if one gets caught? Milli Vanilli, perpetrated a fraud upon the public and as such not only lied but broke a trust afforded them, by their fans.

I'm not sure Senor. Lip synch and voice sweetening and oh so much more is industry standard for a very long time. As I said I am not really the right person to judge the situation.

Magic is not lying. It is performance. I really can't see how it is complicated. It isn't!

Yes magic is all lies. When you do not even realize that anymore or act like it is not then you are fooling yourself. Maybe it has something to do with years working as a magician. Maybe after a few years of deception you feel ready to also fool yourself. It is possible yes.
The question is not really if magic is a lie, which it is, but if this lie is really wrong to do.
A well known, but of course I forgot his name, Christian theologian once say about lying: It should never be done because it hurts what the gospel is about. One can not lie once because his credibility in what he professess comes in danger then. But when someone is lying while clearly showing that he is joking. There is nothing wrong with that. Because everyone knows its just a joke. That it is not true.

So basicly it is simple: Do you act like there is no lie? Or do you not matter that people understand it is a lie and there for it doesn't matter that it is a lie?
I choose the second one over the first.

Yes it are all lies, but it are not wrong lies. They can be, when you try to act like it is all really real but when you even just raise the suspicion that it is not real and that you are fooling them, there is nothing wrong with lying in the first sentence you speak and also nothing wrong in continue to just lie about anything that has to do with the effect you show or your act.

That applies to life. Not to theater. Sorry but in performance lies do not enter into the equation.

Because in theater we and the audience assumes that what it sees is a lie or better yet, make believe. Right Danny?

Danny and Senor Fabuloso make the same point I made. If an act is made in performance, how can you possibly call it a lie? That is ridiculous to me. All actors are not liars!

Exactly.

I'm not sure if I wholly agree. Yes, the art is full of lies, no doubt about that. But the lies in magic are simply part of the vehicle to achieve "magic". In and of itself, the lies in magic, combined with the technique, psychology, etc don't necessarily create the product of magic unless you include the spectator. Without the spectator, there's no magic. So I guess magic is the "simulated reality" (to quote David Parr) that *successfully* plays in a spectators mind. The lies are a part of magic, but magic is not just a lie.

Magic is not about lies to any greater degree than a painting of a bowl of fruit is about lies. All art — drawing, sculpture, theater, cinema — involves some level of technique to create representations or simulations. Magic is simulated impossibility. It’s a complex behavior that addresses a basic human need. Deception is a fascinating human behavior also, but I don’t think we do justice to the complexity of magic by defining it entirely by only one element. When defining magic for myself, I’ve taken a broader, more open view, and I’ve chosen words that are not so burdened with negative baggage.

I think it simply depends on how you define magic.
And the way its been shaped the concept of magic.
Its probable that that guy had an experience that made him think Magic=Lies
Its like a matter of the perception the person had from a magic trick

Just my thoughts
Cristóbal

Meaning = action + language + context.

Confusion of context = confusion in meaning.

Determining the meaning of the context depends on, well... the context of the context

...and so on.

Christians are supposed to lie. It is using a lie to take advantage of someone or cause them harm that is wrong. To say lying itself is wrong in all circumstances is ridiculous. Refusing to lie under any circumstances the height of arrogance and self-justification. "Just being honest" is often a cover for mean-spiritedness and abuse.

Aren't parables in and of themselves a form of lie? A story that didn't happen to convey a "truth". A lie to put forth the truth is no less a lie.

I could be way wrong.

Is every painting, sculpture, and photo a lie? Bambi’s mom didn’t die! Hamlet isn’t a real prince! Might as well include every word ever written, because they’re hopelessly inaccurate and open to multiple interpretations. History, biography, poetry — all lies. There’s a reason why Art History 101 isn’t called Lies & More Lies. Because that would be absurdly simplistic and missing the point. What art does is represent things. It uses symbols, imagery, artifice. Magic does this too. It’s a performing art that represents things that are impossible according to the rules of the everyday world. This is not lying, it’s stagecraft.

When the Nazis come to the door, should the householder tell the truth about the people hiding in the cellar, or lie?
When you are on the way to an event and a lady asks how she looks, do you tell her you don't like that dress, it makes her look fat?

Magic is dependent on the Technology of Deception. Our tools are the same as those of the politician, marketer, military, salesman, con man, thief and swindler. Skills like pick-pocketing, acting, makeup, camouflage, sleight of hand and illusion are used by criminals and the good guys. Magicians use these skills for entertainment. To create a story for the spectator to tell. If the story is created in the right way it is liberating and fun. If the spectator falls for charlatanry, he will be put at a disadvantage. It is framing. If the spectator knows you are kidding, and knows that you know he knows it, then anything is fair. The wink makes the lie okay.