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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Looking for the Holy Grail (ACAAN) (4 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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brehaut
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kentucky
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Quote:
On Jan 30, 2019, Steven Keyl wrote:
If you've really got 45 methods and can't find one you like, then maybe the problem isn't the methods, it's the effect. Have you ever thought about looking at the methods available for a closely linked effect--The Open Prediction? This is similar to ACAAN, but is better, in my opinion, because the spectator gets to decide IN THE MOMENT when they are going to stop, and they don't have to commit to a stopping point at the beginning, as is required with an ACAAN when a number is chosen.

If you like to collect methods then you're in luck because Thomas Baxter released The Open Prediction Project which contains over 50 handlings of the Open Prediction. Here's one that I adapted:



Even if it doesn't replace ACAAN, at least you might pick up some ideas that could be adapted into an ACAAN, or even give you something to change up when you're performing for someone that's already seen ACAAN. Good luck.



I always felt the open prediction and ACAAN were close cousins and I love both.
Patrick Redford
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Michigan
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Quote:
On Jan 25, 2019, Brad Ballew wrote:
Yeah, Redford's Applesauce is clever and uses one of my favorite principles. It's also easy to do and impromptu.

I need to find that ebook! I think I've forgotten how to do it.


This was never offered as an e-book. If you bought it as an ebook you obtained an illegal copy. #themoreyouknow
Martin Pulman
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There is no "holy grail" version of ACAAN. The holy grail was/is the search for something that replicates the conditions of The Berglas Effect. The conditions of the Berglas effect are very clear -the pack must not be touched at any point by the performer. I would agree that Asi Wind's is the best presentation of ACAAN but it falls some way short of being the holy grail. In fact, it is a different effect.
Dr. JK
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Quote:
On Aug 16, 2019, Martin Pulman wrote:
There is no "holy grail" version of ACAAN. The holy grail was/is the search for something that replicates the conditions of The Berglas Effect. The conditions of the Berglas effect are very clear -the pack must not be touched at any point by the performer. I would agree that Asi Wind's is the best presentation of ACAAN but it falls some way short of being the holy grail. In fact, it is a different effect.


But really, Berglas never set out this criteria. This was just how people reported that he performed it. I saw Asi do his version on stage at Magi-Fest a few years ago, and I would have sworn at the time that it fit this criteria. Perception is not always reality.
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Last Laugh
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Quote:
On Aug 16, 2019, Martin Pulman wrote:
There is no "holy grail" version of ACAAN. The holy grail was/is the search for something that replicates the conditions of The Berglas Effect. The conditions of the Berglas effect are very clear -the pack must not be touched at any point by the performer. I would agree that Asi Wind's is the best presentation of ACAAN but it falls some way short of being the holy grail. In fact, it is a different effect.


Once in a while it does meet the criteria! Especially using the setup he uses. I've done ACAAN probably less than 52 times professionally and I can think of 3 times it was the perfect effect, all with the same card/number.

(Yes, I realize that's not your point, lol.)
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IAIN
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Quote:
On Aug 16, 2019, Dr. JK wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 16, 2019, Martin Pulman wrote:
There is no "holy grail" version of ACAAN. The holy grail was/is the search for something that replicates the conditions of The Berglas Effect. The conditions of the Berglas effect are very clear -the pack must not be touched at any point by the performer. I would agree that Asi Wind's is the best presentation of ACAAN but it falls some way short of being the holy grail. In fact, it is a different effect.


But really, Berglas never set out this criteria. This was just how people reported that he performed it. I saw Asi do his version on stage at Magi-Fest a few years ago, and I would have sworn at the time that it fit this criteria. Perception is not always reality.


Martin Breese was my magic publisher for a little while. He gave a copy of the cassette and then cd interview with Mr. Berglas. They are the conditions set out as far as I can remember.

Any version where you, the performer, touches the deck, is a failure. My dad saw Mr Berglas perform it in London in the late 70s I think it was...
Race Blakhart
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I still kick myself for not bookmarking the video, but...

A few years ago I saw an ACAAN where the performer was sitting on a chair with those classic, theater style, red velvet ropes around his immediate area. I don't recall the details now, as it's been two or three years. But I remember thinking that it HAD to be some kind of plant, or confederate who called out the card/number.

I wish I could find it again, as I remember it feeling like it must have been the absolute final word on ACAAN(if it was in fact a legit performance).

If it helps anyone remember, who may have seen it, I think the performer was Asian. But I remember no names or faces. I don't even remember if it was in English. But I would definitely love to find that video again.
Martin Pulman
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Quote:
On Aug 18, 2019, Race Blakhart wrote:
I still kick myself for not bookmarking the video, but...

A few years ago I saw an ACAAN where the performer was sitting on a chair with those classic, theater style, red velvet ropes around his immediate area. I don't recall the details now, as it's been two or three years. But I remember thinking that it HAD to be some kind of plant, or confederate who called out the card/number.

I wish I could find it again, as I remember it feeling like it must have been the absolute final word on ACAAN(if it was in fact a legit performance).

If it helps anyone remember, who may have seen it, I think the performer was Asian. But I remember no names or faces. I don't even remember if it was in English. But I would definitely love to find that video again.


Your mention of red velvet ropes made me think of this rather unusual rendering.

The psycho music as the card is counted to is a particularly strange touch.

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2xfmfj
Bearded_Ste
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I use SCAARN. There's a process to it but it's impromptu and the spectator gets to count through the deck and turn over the card they come to so it gets great reactions.
Philemon Vanderbeck
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IMHO, it's not important that the performer NEVER touch the deck, rather that it seems that the performer cannot manipulate the deck as they handle it. Asi Wind's method fulfills this criteria, as what could appear more innocent than simply removing a deck of cards from its box?

And if the subsequent focus is placed on the participant handling the cards from that point forward, then many witnesses will not remember that the performer even touched the deck for that brief moment.

As with any "miracle," it's less important what you do, than what the witnesses recall you doing (or not doing).
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Martin Pulman
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Quote:
On Aug 18, 2019, Philemon Vanderbeck wrote:
IMHO, it's not important that the performer NEVER touch the deck, rather that it seems that the performer cannot manipulate the deck as they handle it. Asi Wind's method fulfills this criteria, as what could appear more innocent than simply removing a deck of cards from its box?

And if the subsequent focus is placed on the participant handling the cards from that point forward, then many witnesses will not remember that the performer even touched the deck for that brief moment.

As with any "miracle," it's less important what you do, than what the witnesses recall you doing (or not doing).

That may well be true, but it's not the nature of the legend of the Berglas Effect that started off the modern search for the "grail".

ACAAN is a card trick -a brilliant one in Asi Wind's version -but the Berglas Effect is a seemingly impossible mental event. Quite a different beast.
innercirclewannabe
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Quote:
On Aug 18, 2019, Martin Pulman wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 18, 2019, Philemon Vanderbeck wrote:
IMHO, it's not important that the performer NEVER touch the deck, rather that it seems that the performer cannot manipulate the deck as they handle it. Asi Wind's method fulfills this criteria, as what could appear more innocent than simply removing a deck of cards from its box?

And if the subsequent focus is placed on the participant handling the cards from that point forward, then many witnesses will not remember that the performer even touched the deck for that brief moment.

As with any "miracle," it's less important what you do, than what the witnesses recall you doing (or not doing).

That may well be true, but it's not the nature of the legend of the Berglas Effect that started off the modern search for the "grail".

ACAAN is a card trick -a brilliant one in Asi Wind's version -but the Berglas Effect is a seemingly impossible mental event. Quite a different beast.


And as far as Mentalism goes, it will just be perceived as a good demonstration of what the performer can do with a deck of cards. Post effect, most viewers will not give a *** about any of that criteria. It tends to be Magicians who obsess about trivial stuff like that. Of course the word grail in this context is completely a subjective one. Personally I couldn't care less if I have the take the cards out of the box or even handle the cards. My concentration and concern throughout is making it entertaining, engaging and totally congruent with my persona. That's the only criteria that I worry about for a paying audience.
Tá sé ach cleas má dhéanann tú sé cuma mhaith ar cheann.
Chaz93
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My go to for an impromtu ACAAN (though... why would you do this?) is to have the pack of cards shuffled. You then rifle the cards into hand and ask participant to say stop. They do, and you show them the card they stopped at and ask them to memorize it. You then square the deck (whilst p@**ing their card to the top) and place the deck on the table. Another participant is asked to name a number. You take the deck and deal to that number, revealing the thought of card. I'm sure you can figure out how this is done.

I've a couple of methods for acheiving this effect on camera, or in very controlled live performance situations which meets the Berglas effect requirements I believe.

1. Participant takes and shuffles deck.
2. Second participant only thinks of a card.
3. Participant shuffling names a number and hands card to participant 2.
4. Participant 2 deals cards from the top of the deck face down until number called by participant 1 is reached.
5. Participant 2 is asked for the first time to name their card aloud.
6. Card is revealed to be the one thought of by participant 2

At no points does the magician/mentalist touch the deck.
Martin Pulman
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Quote:
On Aug 18, 2019, innercirclewannabe wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 18, 2019, Martin Pulman wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 18, 2019, Philemon Vanderbeck wrote:
IMHO, it's not important that the performer NEVER touch the deck, rather that it seems that the performer cannot manipulate the deck as they handle it. Asi Wind's method fulfills this criteria, as what could appear more innocent than simply removing a deck of cards from its box?

And if the subsequent focus is placed on the participant handling the cards from that point forward, then many witnesses will not remember that the performer even touched the deck for that brief moment.

As with any "miracle," it's less important what you do, than what the witnesses recall you doing (or not doing).

That may well be true, but it's not the nature of the legend of the Berglas Effect that started off the modern search for the "grail".

ACAAN is a card trick -a brilliant one in Asi Wind's version -but the Berglas Effect is a seemingly impossible mental event. Quite a different beast.


And as far as Mentalism goes, it will just be perceived as a good demonstration of what the performer can do with a deck of cards. Post effect, most viewers will not give a *** about any of that criteria. It tends to be Magicians who obsess about trivial stuff like that. Of course the word grail in this context is completely a subjective one. Personally I couldn't care less if I have the take the cards out of the box or even handle the cards. My concentration and concern throughout is making it entertaining, engaging and totally congruent with my persona. That's the only criteria that I worry about for a paying audience.

The Berglas Effect has nothing to do with what a performer can do with a deck of cards -in the legendary versions of the effect the cards are clearly never touched by the performer. It is an essential part of the experience. Nor does the Berglas Effect have much -if anything- to do with entertaining paying audiences. That is the job of ACAAN routines. Asi Wind does a great job of making his routine entertaining and engaging. But it doesn't capture the essence of the Berglas effect.
Race Blakhart
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Quote:
On Aug 18, 2019, Martin Pulman wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 18, 2019, Race Blakhart wrote:
I still kick myself for not bookmarking the video, but...

A few years ago I saw an ACAAN where the performer was sitting on a chair with those classic, theater style, red velvet ropes around his immediate area. I don't recall the details now, as it's been two or three years. But I remember thinking that it HAD to be some kind of plant, or confederate who called out the card/number.

I wish I could find it again, as I remember it feeling like it must have been the absolute final word on ACAAN(if it was in fact a legit performance).

If it helps anyone remember, who may have seen it, I think the performer was Asian. But I remember no names or faces. I don't even remember if it was in English. But I would definitely love to find that video again.


Your mention of red velvet ropes made me think of this rather unusual rendering.

The psycho music as the card is counted to is a particularly strange touch.

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2xfmfj


This HAS to be the one I saw! I don't remember it being in front of a studio audience, but I probably just forgot that part.

So, he does touch the deck when removing them from the box, but that's before anything is called.
Beautiful, in my opinion. And though I can easily follow along, I do wish I could speak the language. I would love to hear what he's saying during the introduction.
innercirclewannabe
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Quote:
On Aug 18, 2019, Martin Pulman wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 18, 2019, innercirclewannabe wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 18, 2019, Martin Pulman wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 18, 2019, Philemon Vanderbeck wrote:
IMHO, it's not important that the performer NEVER touch the deck, rather that it seems that the performer cannot manipulate the deck as they handle it. Asi Wind's method fulfills this criteria, as what could appear more innocent than simply removing a deck of cards from its box?

And if the subsequent focus is placed on the participant handling the cards from that point forward, then many witnesses will not remember that the performer even touched the deck for that brief moment.

As with any "miracle," it's less important what you do, than what the witnesses recall you doing (or not doing).

That may well be true, but it's not the nature of the legend of the Berglas Effect that started off the modern search for the "grail".

ACAAN is a card trick -a brilliant one in Asi Wind's version -but the Berglas Effect is a seemingly impossible mental event. Quite a different beast.


And as far as Mentalism goes, it will just be perceived as a good demonstration of what the performer can do with a deck of cards. Post effect, most viewers will not give a *** about any of that criteria. It tends to be Magicians who obsess about trivial stuff like that. Of course the word grail in this context is completely a subjective one. Personally I couldn't care less if I have the take the cards out of the box or even handle the cards. My concentration and concern throughout is making it entertaining, engaging and totally congruent with my persona. That's the only criteria that I worry about for a paying audience.

The Berglas Effect has nothing to do with what a performer can do with a deck of cards -in the legendary versions of the effect the cards are clearly never touched by the performer. It is an essential part of the experience. Nor does the Berglas Effect have much -if anything- to do with entertaining paying audiences. That is the job of ACAAN routines. Asi Wind does a great job of making his routine entertaining and engaging. But it doesn't capture the essence of the Berglas effect.



So in essence you're saying that the effect is for Magicians only. The effect as you describe it has no bearing on an audience. Nobody will be saying, 'imagine he never touched the deck etc etc. That type of dialogue is the reserve of Magicians. I have performed what would be deemed as 'lesser card effects' on stage & TV. They garnered a tremendous reaction, despite the fact that I handled the cards. Those card effects are the grail for me as it got me repeat bookings.
Tá sé ach cleas má dhéanann tú sé cuma mhaith ar cheann.
Martin Pulman
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On Aug 18, 2019, innercirclewannabe wrote:

So in essence you're saying that the effect is for Magicians only. The effect as you describe it has no bearing on an audience. Nobody will be saying, 'imagine he never touched the deck etc etc. That type of dialogue is the reserve of Magicians. I have performed what would be deemed as 'lesser card effects' on stage & TV. They garnered a tremendous reaction, despite the fact that I handled the cards. Those card effects are the grail for me as it got me repeat bookings.


I don't think it is just for magicians. It would have an extraordinary impact on a normal participant. I just don't think it would be anywhere near as powerful on paying audiences watching the effect as the only answer they could find would be collusion between performer and participant. Indeed, Berglas had been performing ACAAN on stage for years. It was only when the stories of the one on one performances started to spread that the legend began-first in the 70s and then again in the early 2000s.
innercirclewannabe
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Quote:
On Aug 19, 2019, Martin Pulman wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 18, 2019, innercirclewannabe wrote:

So in essence you're saying that the effect is for Magicians only. The effect as you describe it has no bearing on an audience. Nobody will be saying, 'imagine he never touched the deck etc etc. That type of dialogue is the reserve of Magicians. I have performed what would be deemed as 'lesser card effects' on stage & TV. They garnered a tremendous reaction, despite the fact that I handled the cards. Those card effects are the grail for me as it got me repeat bookings.


I don't think it is just for magicians. It would have an extraordinary impact on a normal participant. I just don't think it would be anywhere near as powerful on paying audiences watching the effect as the only answer they could find would be collusion between performer and participant. Indeed, Berglas had been performing ACAAN on stage for years. It was only when the stories of the one on one performances started to spread that the legend began-first in the 70s and then again in the early 2000s.


I'm not sure I understand the difference between a 'normal person' and any member of an audience? I didn't know that there was a distinction? Looks like we will have to agree to disagree - the bottom line in any effect, irrespective of the criteria or otherwise is that it all begins and ends with the performer. Everything else is merely secondary.
Tá sé ach cleas má dhéanann tú sé cuma mhaith ar cheann.
Martin Pulman
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Quote:
On Aug 19, 2019, innercirclewannabe wrote:

I'm not sure I understand the difference between a 'normal person' and any member of an audience? I didn't know that there was a distinction? Looks like we will have to agree to disagree - the bottom line in any effect, irrespective of the criteria or otherwise is that it all begins and ends with the performer. Everything else is merely secondary.


I was drawing a distinction between normal participants and abnormal participants, ie: magicians and mentalists. And I honestly think it makes no sense to say the criteria is secondary when searching for "the grail". That's why people call it "the grail". It is the search for the ultimate method. A method that fulfills seemingly impossible criteria. It wouldn't be "the grail" if it merely depended on the talents of a specific performer.

The thread on this page on Thomas Baxter's Open Prediction effect is a great example of a "grail effect". It seems to fulfill impossible criteria and appears to be the ultimate version of that effect.

Ben Blau Posted: Sep 30, 2017 09:29 am
...Tom insisted on a borrowed deck...Tom insisted on never touching the deck...TOM DID NOT TOUCH THE DECK EVEN ONCE. He asked to borrow my pad of paper, and openly wrote the name of one card, in full view...No one else but Kasey had any physical contact with the deck.

Nothing intervened here other than Tom verbally describing the conditions of “51 Faces North”. He then told Kasey to deal cards one by one, face up onto the table, stopping whenever she wished.

Trying to be difficult, Kasey eventually stopped dealing at card #50...Tom asked her to deal the next card face down onto the pile already dealt, and then to deal the final two on top of that...The face down card was still visible, as it happened near the end of the deal. Tom told Kasey to turn it over. It was the exact card that Tom openly wrote down.

This is my exact recollection of what happened.

I only wanted to know one thing, so I simply asked Kasey, “Did you just experience the exact same effect as I did?” She answered yes, and I believe her. I wanted to rule out stoogery.

I’m not leaving anything out."


Ben Blau wouldn't have described it the way he did if Thomas Baxter has been fiddling with the cards at any point. The strictness of the criteria is what makes it fascinating -to those fascinated by such things. It is what makes it, potentially, the Grail.
innercirclewannabe
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Criteria is secondary & it makes perfect sense when you consider that I wrote a number of posts ago that the term grail is very much a subjective one. The distinction may have been better understood if you had written non magician audience v magician audience. That distinction I do understand but the obsession about trying to fool other magicians is something I don't understand.
Tá sé ach cleas má dhéanann tú sé cuma mhaith ar cheann.
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