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Alyx
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I wish so much that someone had shown me Bobo's and Royal Road to Card Magic when I was a teen (or younger). It should be straightforward to design a curriculum based on these two texts.
kinesis
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Thank you KALIIX & IMGIC for your understanding and support.

Yes, the first round of comments to my original post were off-putting and negative. At times I wished I hadn't bothered posting.

I'm 54yrs old, I've been performing professionally for 37 years, The first 17 of those as a Children's entertainer. I then moved into the close-up sector, performing at restaurants, weddings and corporate events. Since then I've being doing a mix of performances ranging from a complete 2hr mentalism stage show, to radio broadcasts to walkabout close-up at private parties. As a performer I never stop learning, I never stop refining my art and yet I felt after 37 yrs in the field I was being lectured to when all I wanted to do was to teach a bunch of kids a couple of tricks. I'm sure when your uncle sat you on his knee and taught you how to vanish a coin, he had no moral dilemma like The Café has presented here. WOW!!!!
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein






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davidpaul$
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Quote:
On Feb 18, 2019, kinesis wrote:
Thank you KALIIX & IMGIC for your understanding and support.

Yes, the first round of comments to my original post were off-putting and negative. At times I wished I hadn't bothered posting.

I'm 54yrs old, I've been performing professionally for 37 years, The first 17 of those as a Children's entertainer. I then moved into the close-up sector, performing at restaurants, weddings and corporate events. Since then I've being doing a mix of performances ranging from a complete 2hr mentalism stage show, to radio broadcasts to walkabout close-up at private parties. As a performer I never stop learning, I never stop refining my art and yet I felt after 37 yrs in the field I was being lectured to when all I wanted to do was to teach a bunch of kids a couple of tricks. I'm sure when your uncle sat you on his knee and taught you how to vanish a coin, he had no moral dilemma like The Café has presented here. WOW!!!!


REALLY???? You asked for advice and it was given respectfully. They were opinions from professionals
who have real world experience like you. So you disagreed, so what. No need to complain about the answers given and that you were being lectured to. I don't understand since you are the OP. I applaud your experience and willingness to help up and coming, possible future magical entertainers.

People that post replies to questions have different experiences and are shared. Whether you heed them or not is up to you. You did what you thought was appropiate. Best of luck to you.
If you can't help worrying, remember worrying can't help you!
kinesis
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Quote:
On Feb 18, 2019, davidpaul$ wrote:

REALLY???? You asked for advice and it was given respectfully. They were opinions from professionals who have real world experience like you.



YES REALLY!!!! I asked what effects might be appropriate to teach to a small group of teenagers.

davidpaul$, how many of the 27 comments prior to my event actually addressed my question with suggested effects?
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein






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Dannydoyle
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In your blanket condemnation you are throwing away some great posts by Mary, and Funsway. So it almost looks like you are choosing to be offended. Mary NEVER is discouraging to ANYONE about ANYTHING.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
kinesis
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Quote:
On Feb 18, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
In your blanket condemnation you are throwing away some great posts by Mary, and Funsway. So it almost looks like you are choosing to be offended. Mary NEVER is discouraging to ANYONE about ANYTHING.


You’re right. My apologies, maybe I was a little overwhelmed by so many comments with so many different opinions and advice. Not at all what I was expecting LOL

Thank you all for taking an interest and responding (In many cases) passionately.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein






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Dannydoyle
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Yes when it is put in the perspective of thinking Mary is being offensive it changes LOL! (NOT an insult Mary, you are always a positive voice and encouraging is my point. It is a compliment.)

There are those of us who come off as a "bull in a China shop". (ME being the worst offender.) I can see how when you are expecting one thing and get a LOT of another it can seem overwhelming. No harm no foul. The passion most if not all have here is to help. Even if our own particular style seems a bit too aggressive. No harm is intended I guarantee.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dick Oslund
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With all due respect to your age, and professional experience, kinesis, I think that you should KNOW how to mentor teenagers.

I've been "eating off it" (magic)as Frances Ireland usta say, for 50 +/- 50 years, as a professional, and about 20 years as a part time professional. I'm 87 and, retired. I learned over 50 years ago, how to help INTERESTED TEEN AGERS to learn. I mentored the late Bob McAllister, when he was in high school. I did the same for the late Chuck Windley. I did the same for the late DOUG HENNING (plus many successful young and middle aged professionals.)

I suggested in my first post, how I help young potential magicians. There are dozens of magic books geared to them. (When I was a teen there were only a few books for that age group. I started with "The Magic Show Book" by Alexander the Magician, and "Fun With Magic", by Joseph Leeming.) They helped me book my first school assembly. I made $24. in about 40 minutes, in October, 1945. I was 13. I became a part time professional, THAT DAY.

No one held a meeting and taught me how a few tricks were DONE! Sophocles said it, a few thousand years ago: "One learns by doing the thing!"
At age 8, I saw Stanley Susan's magic show. I told the story in my book about how I decided, that day, to be a magician. --And. I DID.
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funsway
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Quote:
On Feb 18, 2019, kinesis wrote:


YES REALLY!!!! I asked what effects might be appropriate to teach to a small group of teenagers.

davidpaul$, how many of the 27 comments prior to my event actually addressed my question with suggested effects?


Weird. Your OP was "I've been asked to teach teenagers (12 - 15yrs olds) 4 or 5 simple magic effects. Any suggestions?"

No where in there do I see a request for tricks. For me, "effects" and "tricks" are different.
"Been asked to teach" did not imply that you were going to do it regardless, but wanted suggestions on whether to do so or not.

I offered suggestions based on actual experience addressing both concepts.
I asked questions to clarify who and what you were considering (none answered)

Later you say, "Thanks for all of the advice but I didn't take any of it and I just did my thing."

So, it sounds like you always intended to meet this request and had some "tricks" planned. Why did you ask for suggestions at all?

You feel that I was being disrespectful. Weird.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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kinesis
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I guess it's all down to the way I worded the O.P.

It would seem everyone interpreted it differently. I had already accepted the (no fee - time freely given) event and was simply looking for ideas for appropriate tricks. Hence my frustration/surprise at the replies.

I never meant to offend anyone
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein






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Dick Oslund
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Kinesis!

You asked for suggestions for EFFECTS to teach teenagers in your OP.

With your years of experience, you should KNOW that an EFFECT is WHAT THE SPECTATOR PERCEIVES!

>>>AN EFFECT IS NOT A TRICK.>>>

A TRICK IS WHAT A MAGICIAN PERFORMS TO CREATE MAGIC IN THE MIND(S) OF THE SPECTATOR(S). Whether the PERFORMANCE of the TRICK creates MAGIC in the mind(s) of the SPECTATOR(S) depends on the magician's PRESENTATION.

(Magic is NOT INHERENTLY ENTERTAINING!)

A magician cannot TEACH an EFFECT!

Somewhere above you said that you never stop learning. Good! (When you are through learning, you're through!)

I think that you should read, no study, the Fitzkee Trilogy! 37 years of experience isn't worth much, when one has not learned the FUNDAMENTALS.

Dick Oslund
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Kights
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Im 15 and I have royal road , expert card technique, the expert at the card table , card control , Mnemonica and all 5 card college books as books to read for technique and tricks and it's amazing to read through them and learn. For teens you have to remember to not rush your practice and be patient before you go preform your effect
kinesis
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Quote:
On Feb 19, 2019, Dick Oslund wrote:
Kinesis!

You asked for suggestions for EFFECTS to teach teenagers in your OP.

With your years of experience, you should KNOW that an EFFECT is WHAT THE SPECTATOR PERCEIVES!

>>>AN EFFECT IS NOT A TRICK.>>>

A TRICK IS WHAT A MAGICIAN PERFORMS TO CREATE MAGIC IN THE MIND(S) OF THE SPECTATOR(S). Whether the PERFORMANCE of the TRICK creates MAGIC in the mind(s) of the SPECTATOR(S) depends on the magician's PRESENTATION.

(Magic is NOT INHERENTLY ENTERTAINING!)

A magician cannot TEACH an EFFECT!

Somewhere above you said that you never stop learning. Good! (When you are through learning, you're through!)

I think that you should read, no study, the Fitzkee Trilogy! 37 years of experience isn't worth much, when one has not learned the FUNDAMENTALS.

Dick Oslund


Hi Dick
I believe I corrected myself in all my other posts or maybe most of them where I used the word 'tricks'. I really dislike the word 'trick' and that's why I used the word 'effect' instead, my bad, I should have used the correct word in the first instance but I did change it in later posts.

I've listened and I've apologised and I've tried to identify where I could have been misunderstood but you know what Dick, your rant just reminded me why I abandoned The Café several years ago. Your rant was completely uncalled for. If the best you can do is pick me up on the misuse of a single word in a post and shout at me about it in CAPITALS and belittle my 37 years of experience then I want nothing to do with you or The Café. You might have great respect from your friends in this little corner of the internet but you've just lost all of mine.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein






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Kaliix
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I look at my magic club and see no young people in it. I go to my local magic convention and see mostly old men, very few young people, teens and 20's.

I see all the negativity here, all the condescension and saltiness and it's no wonder.

Listen, I don't want kids performing bad magic but they gotta start some where some how. All Kinesis wanted was a few trick suggestions, not a litany of sarcasm and negativity.

I'm not saying you can't say anything is a bad idea, but Jeez SUS, say it short and sweet, ONCE! and then be done with it.

It's embarrassing sometimes, really...
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel J. Boorstin
Dannydoyle
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Yes your post certainly is ironic in tone don't you think?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dick Oslund
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Quote:
On Feb 7, 2019, Dick Oslund wrote:
I agree with your disagreement


Kalix: THIS was my FIRST comment on this thread. I was agreeing with Dollar Bill, regarding Chamberlin's post.

I said NOTHING to the OP.
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
Dick Oslund
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Quote:
On Feb 8, 2019, Dick Oslund wrote:
I agree Ken. The situation you have described is too often the case.

These "magicians" who want to expose the methods of "commercial' tricks to "curiosity seekers", are doing just that: EXPOSING. (e.g.,see Mr. Chamberlain's post above.)

THEY ARE NOT HELPING MAGIC, OR THOSE SEEKERS who are only motivated by "secrets:.

I have years of experience, mentoring teens. Many are now successful professionals. Some are avid amateurs. It was made clear to all of them at early meetings, that I could merely help them learn. Learning is an active process, not a passive one.

We had discussions, but, I merely recommended books by well qualified magicians, and, we discussed what they had learned.

I only mentored those who showed themselves SERIOUS.


Kalix: Thia is my SEC0ND post on this thread, I was agreeing with my friend, Ken. I said nothing to the OP. I merely described how I mentored young teens who had expressed a serious interest.
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Dick Oslund
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[quote]On Feb 11, 2019, Kaliix wrote:
Dick did nothing but crap all over the original posters idea in like four different posts. One post was enough to register his disapproval. Multiple negative posts with no real suggestions forthcoming were unnecessary.

Kindly tell me how my agreement with Ken, in which I mentioned my "method" of mentoring, or my agreeing with Dollar Bill's disagreement with Chamberlain's suggestion were "crapping all over the OP's idea "... in like four different posts."

My final contribution to the OP's thread, was "with all due respect" an attempt to help him understand a few very basic terms.

You and I have had differences of opinion, before. I've never bothered to make an issue of those differences, but, this time, I could not ignore them.

BTW, you mention that your magic club is full of old men. Do you know that that the IBM and SAM are both losing membership? Have you considered the reason?
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
foolsnobody
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Quote:
On Feb 19, 2019, Dick Oslund wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 11, 2019, Kaliix wrote:
Dick did nothing but crap all over the original posters idea in like four different posts. One post was enough to register his disapproval. Multiple negative posts with no real suggestions forthcoming were unnecessary.

<snip>

BTW, you mention that your magic club is full of old men. Do you know that that the IBM and SAM are both losing membership? Have you considered the reason?


The attitudes of the old-timers that Kaliix referred to were a problem in the 1960's when I quit going to magic clubs. Zero humility and a lot of "I know a secret and you don't." A lot like the old Saturday Night Live Weekend Update with Chevy Chase. I know it's a vicious circle where the "kid" might not be too humble either, but...

All I want to point out here is that a lot of older magicians in magic clubs had the same lousy attitude in 1965 that Kaliix mentioned in his post 50+ years later. But Kaliix, Dick ALWAYS uses caps for emphasis when he is sharing what he believes are important principles of magic that must be properly understood. We "internet savvy kids" recognize caps as SHOUTING but you gotta realize that Dick, like I, was born before TELEVISION and WAY before the Internet was created.
funsway
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I am a bit thrown by the phrase "register his disapproval." As an old fart I do not consider offering an alternative or challenge and idea as indicating "disapproval."

In fact, when I take time to offer a suggestion I am registering approval. Reasoned discourse is an investment of time and energy.

In many threads I see an apparent need to "impress people" or to "seek approval." Why?
If you have an idea in support of a theme or to offer a different idea for comparison, just say it without posturing or personal attack/reference.

My experience with various magic clubs over 60 years is also different, it seems.
There are those who have experience to share and attempt to mentor the learning of magic. The know that "teaching tricks" is of little value.
The there are those who demonstrate half-practiced tricks seeking some sort of ego stroke - like a Karaoke reduction of magic to Kindergarten 'show and tell.'
Age has little to do with that. I see more "lousy attitude" in the second group than in those who think learning magic takes effort.

I thought that as a kid of 13 in my first magic circle and don't see any reason to change if I should join a new club now.
I guess it is a matter of why you join a club and what you expect. If you look for bad attitude you will always find it.
I have learned something from every performance at a magic club and every comment made or withheld.

As to why membership in magic clubs and organizations is declining, I have an opinion there too.

Learning a trick is easy. Mastering a magic effect is more difficult. Developing the ability to inspire "must be magic" in the mind of an observer is tough.
Few younger people today seem willing to invest any effort into learning anything. Laziness and a concept of 'instant gratification' is the culprit.
Even if you do believe that clubs are filled with old men with bad attitudes - suffering through that is part of the work if you wish to learn magic rather than tricks.

When I see another person perform magic I am a 13 year old kid again. When I see someone mangle a trick or expect something for nothing I am made old and aloof.

Bu there is never "disapproval." That would remove the joy. In a way magic is about disagreeing. I wallow in it!
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



ShareBooks at www.eversway.com * questions at funsway@eversway.com
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