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ELS Regular user Chicagoland area, IL 191 Posts |
Yep,
Who would think sharing ones concept of an idea (among those of like minds in a room), would find it being used by another before the originator used it. Lesson Learned. Ed http://theunexplainedworld.com
Were the border between the natural and the supernatural will be nothing any more but fuzzy. http://edwardshanahan.com
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Necromancer Inner circle Chicago 3076 Posts |
Okay, Ed, I give. What happened?
Best, Neil
Creator of The Xpert (20 PAGES of reviews!), Cut & Color, Hands-Off Multiple ESP (HOME) System, Rider-Waite Readers book, Zoom Pendulum ebook ...
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Greg Arce Inner circle 6732 Posts |
Unfortunately, Ed, it has happened more times than I like to talk about. Just keep moving forward and know within yourself that you are the creative one and not the one who stole it.
Greg
One of my favorite quotes: "A critic is a legless man who teaches running."
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Michael Peterson Inner circle is where I'm trapped, because of my 4071 Posts |
Unfortunately, This does happen very often. Many times, people are too trusting in who they share their ideas with & they are taken advantage of. I would definitely take Gregs advice, know that you create & others regurgitate.
Keep on creating! |
WR Special user Utah 945 Posts |
Quote:
On 2004-05-11 21:01, Necromancer wrote: Perhaps I am in the dark here. What happen? WR
"Tell Em WR sent Ya."
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Michael Peterson Inner circle is where I'm trapped, because of my 4071 Posts |
I would assume that someone developed & used one of his ideas for an effect.
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ELS Regular user Chicagoland area, IL 191 Posts |
Quote:
On 2004-05-13 13:57, Ichazod wrote: Hello Ichazod, Close but not quite, concept or idea was for basically a type of presentation and based on a theme to build it around, as if you visit my web site, you may underdstand the direction (there are two paths at the site, follow the one on your right). I know what was discussed, as well as an individual or two who heard me discussing it with the one running with it. But lesson learned and as history has proven, no matter what one may copy, they can not copy the mind of the individual who came up with the concept, that is still mine. Thanks again, Ed http://theunexplainedworld.com
Were the border between the natural and the supernatural will be nothing any more but fuzzy. http://edwardshanahan.com
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Michael Peterson Inner circle is where I'm trapped, because of my 4071 Posts |
Ed,
I'm glad to see that you realise the importance of your creativity & that no one can take that away from you. Keep on brother! Ichazod |
Moonlit Knight Regular user U.S. 113 Posts |
Perhaps I'm out of line here - being new to this board but it must never be said that I don't start with a splash. ELS, I understand how it is to be a victim of ideas being taken by people whom were trusted. For the past few years I've stayed away from the magical community for similar reasons. I've retained my memberships in the national organizations, actively performing in the southern U.S. and purchasing any books that I felt could help me in keeping my mental juices flowing in the realms of the magical arts.
However, I'm in a bit of a mental quagmire with your post (B.T.W. enjoyed your site). Granted, I am not privy to the whole story, yet a few questions beg to be asked. You stated that the "concept or idea was for basically a type of presentation and based on a theme to build it around ... I know what was discussed, as well as an individual or two who heard me discussing it with the one running with it." And this is what I find troublesome. As I understand it, you had a "concept or idea" for "a type of presentation and based on a theme". Nothing was set, it was only an idea yet someone took the idea and ran with it. They did their work, worked out the bugs and developed it into something apparently do-able. If I'm right, then I see the only problem is them taking the concept and using it. This, I guess, could be a major thing but isn't this what we all do? Don't we all take ideas and modify them into something that suits us - books, movies, history, beliefs, stories, so on and so forth? How many people have used the Harry Potter books as a basis of a performance piece, if not the whole show? I could understand if you had the act set and were working it, then someone came around and took it in whole or in part that would be recognizable as something you created. Unfortunately, concepts and ideas are just that - they still need development for action to occur (i. e. Harry Potter levitating a feather is a long way from a magician levitating a feather - however, if the magician sites Harry Potter as he/she levitates the feather then there could be some copyright issues). I may be entirely off track here and I do understand "playing things close to the vest" from here on out but, there are things that must be made clear for all to understand what the ground rules are. First it’s understood that taking another magician’s work, whether it is the entire act / specific tricks with presentation or persona and mannerisms is unacceptable, as it should be. But, if someone used, lets say, Burger’s Hindu storyline for the Cremation Illusion rather than the Gypsy Thread, would that be acceptable? (Note: I'm not advocating this but using it as an example simply because I believe it is familiar.) How about a performance of the Gypsy Thread with another story line - is this off limits? After all, Burger was not the originator of either the Hindu belief system or the Gypsy Thread. However, he did marry the two and as such, in my opinion, that specific combination should not be performed by anyone other than him or the one(s) he gives specific permission for its use. Am I incorrect with this thinking? What about the same story, as above, applied to the cut and restored rope? If the above was acceptable, is this effect too close to his performance, therefore being off limits? Or, what if another magical performer submitted a story but was at a loss as to what effect should be presented with it? Would that story or a derivative which suits ones own style be off limits to the people who might wish to use it? Now let’s say that person designed a story effect around a mystical force entering an object thus causing that object to move / float / levitate etc. but lacked the know how to get the effect to work. Would both be off limits to the reader to work out and perform? After all, there are several ways to animate an object. Should we, as performers be able to develop stories, routines, effects and the like based on other peoples work and ideas? Are we, as entertainers, limited as to how we can or should develop the works and ideas of others to those people apparently outside the magic community? If yes, than should we give up all our tricks / effects / props we use if we did not develop them ourselves? And, if we did develop those things ourselves then shouldn't we toss out those things based on the principles we used to assist in that development? There have been occasions where I have seen people write within the "Magic Café" that they are interested in working out a way to do a particular effect, not something seen or done on TV perhaps but simply a pet project. The response to these people, I have found to be along the lines of "so and so already does that in his act, if you want to perform it then you need his permission". I can understand this but where is it written or implied that if someone does a particular effect that they have all rights to it? Would it not be better to say, if known, "you might want to look into these book(s) or such and such video(s). A few methods discussed within may help you in developing what you are seeking. I am aware so and so does something similar, you might want to see if he will be willing to give you a few pointers". If we are worried about others discovering the secrets, instead of being told the method flat-out (which I don’t believe should be done) or giving a response similar to the "you need permission" answer, wouldn't it be better to help that person by giving references? I’ve discovered that if you tell a person asking about the workings of a certain "thing" in what book it can be found, very few want to discover the secret badly enough to attempt to find it, or if found, make the purchase. Those people who do, generally show a greater respect towards our craft. If they are a performer then they may better their own work in the process and might bring themselves as well as the rest of us to the next level. Yes, creativity can never be taken away from the person who has it, but we must honestly ask ourselves what goes into our own creative process? Although we may be creative, I, unfortunately, believe we are never entirely original. I don’t mean to come off as being cynical or sarcastic and I apologize if it reads that way. I only ask what is to be the standard of the creative process within this field of this performing art? Is creativity something that should be encouraged? If it is, we must ask ourselves how, if no longer allowed to look to sources within our field. How do we expect to fight stagnation?
"Join the dance... Follow on! With a twist of the world we go."
- Genesis "Dancing With The Moonlit Knight" |
ELS Regular user Chicagoland area, IL 191 Posts |
Quote:
On 2004-05-16 01:02, Moonlit Knight wrote: Hi Moonlit Knight, Let me ask you - If you already where working on the concept and knew that there was an audience out there, as your web site has proven as well as your own public access cable show. And you explaine this to one who you thought could be trusted and lay out how you planned on working it, why and what your going to develop it around. Then you see your idea being played out (with out the devolping of it as I have), by the individual you thought could be or should be trusted. One of the individuals witnessed to the discussions, was wondering when I was going to say anything, when he seen it being played out. Hmmmm I think you may now understand better. But as I said, never fear - my mind is still mine and lesson learned. Ed http://theunexplainedworld.com
Were the border between the natural and the supernatural will be nothing any more but fuzzy. http://edwardshanahan.com
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Black Hart Elite user Scottish Highlands 475 Posts |
Well ‘Moonlit Knight’ you make some very good points there and ‘Ed' has introduced a very interesting and complex subject. As a magic dealer and performer I have a strong interest in the subject of copying other people’s ideas, both from the point of having my ideas copied and of being accused of copying other people’s ideas.
Let me state right now that I can not comment on Ed’s case as I do not know the people or the full circumstances. So what follows are MY experiences and are in no way meant to be a direct comment on Ed’s case. I am sure that if Ed feels he was ripped off then he must have some cause. I had been running my Haunted House Nights for a couple of years and I decided to put on a ‘showcase’ evening for potential corporate customers, as this was the market I had decided to aim at. In co-operation with a large country house hotel the ‘decision makers’ from a number of large companies were invited along to a complimentary ‘Banquet Bizarre’. The hotel provided some contacts and Black Hart Productions (my company) provided some. The hotel stood the cost of the catering and I stood the cost of the entertainment. A good mutual arrangement. The evening went very well and one couple in particular were very interested and asked lots of questions about costs, the organising of such an evening etc. Anyway we followed up the evening with more contact and sales work. About 2 months afterwards I saw ‘Banquet Bizarre’ advertised at a venue not very far from the country house hotel where our showcase had been held. I immediately sent off for their brochure. I discovered that the title of the evening, the format and even some of the characters names were exactly the same as ours. A little more delving showed that the people running this new evening were the couple who had been asking all the questions at the showcase event. They were an entertainment company and the hotel had invited them along! This was a direct rip off. My first instinct was to dash to my solicitors to see if I could sue them. However, when I had come down from the ceiling I decided to wait a short while to see how they got on. Well, I’m glad I did, as I saved myself some hefty legal fees. You see their problem was, they could copy the idea, they could rip off the format and even the character names, but what they could NOT do was copy the talent of the performers. They did not have my staff. They did not have the experience and ability of the superb team who made up my show. After all that is where the essence of the show really is. And of course when they were asking questions I had not told them everything, all those little details and twists that go on behind the scenes to make the whole evening run smoothly. The impostors lasted just a couple of months. I’ve not heard of them since. Okay, so now to the magic dealers side of the story. The Black Artefacts range of weird and bizarre magic effects are mostly developed by me. Like anyone else, the ideas I have are influenced by the world around me, by the things I read, by my own experiences, by my own likes and dislikes. I try to give everything I create an ‘original’ presentation. We do not sell other dealers effects. A couple of the effects were inspired by magic effects that are produced by another magic dealer. I saw the particular effect and realised that it could easily be converted to a ‘bizarre’ effect with a different presentation and the use of Tarot cards. However I needed to use the very same handling. So I contacted the dealers in question and obtained permission to reproduce the effects. In each case the original dealer is credited in the instructions, along with their address. I think that is fair. One of my effects was inspired by an effect in a book, Capricornian Tales, written by one of the members of this forum – Christian Chelman. I liked the general idea but I wanted to produce it with a completely different handling. So I changed the handling and story and produced the equipment with a ‘gimmick’ to do most of the work. Here I was not copying, but I was using a basic idea. So, in the advertising on the website I credit Christian with the original idea and in the instructions I not only credit Christian with the idea but I mention the book and give details of the publisher. Another example is our effect ‘The Devil in Mind’. Here is a direct quote from the printed instructions: “The idea for this effect came from an article by Brother Shadow in Mary Tomich’s Altar Flame magazine (Candlemas 1999). The original working was by Maurice Fogel. I have added a few things to it and re scripted it (of course).” I think that this is fair as well. One of the presentations I use came about as a result of a conversation with a friend. A sort of, ‘hey, wouldn’t it be a good idea if…’ Well I thought it would be, and over the next few weeks I developed the idea and worked out all the intricacies and details. After a few months I finished the package and launched it on my corporate market. I also gave the presentation and tools to use the idea to my friend. Since then we have both used it regularly and have earned a considerable amount of money from it. I think that was fair also. I also know someone who is forever talking about his great ideas. He is always telling people how they could do things better. He also complains that people steal his ideas. I can also tell you that this person never puts any of his ideas into being. He never gets of his backside and DOES anything. It very often takes months and sometimes years to take an idea through to a finished effect which can be produced for sale. I get ideas and inspiration from many places, often I’ve no indication where a particular idea came from. But, all ideas develop from some experience you have at sometime in your life. My original Haunted House was inspired by the writings of Eugene Burger. The way I present my magic was also inspired by his books. But, I am NOT Eugene Burger, and I don’t think that anyone who saw my act would think for one moment that I was trying to copy him. I have my own style, a style that is ME, but Eugene Burger certainly played an (unknown to him) part in shaping me the way I am as a performer. The idea of copying is by no means unique to magic. My youngest daughter works in the media/theatre world and I can tell you the stealing of ideas is rife there. For example when she goes for interviews part of the process is almost always to submit ‘ideas’ for the particular project. So they invite 20 people for interviews, get 20 ‘ideas’ and employ one person! My daughter has several friends who having been unsuccessful in interview, have seen their own ideas appear at a later date under someone else’s name. It is sad, but it happens. If I am a part of a general conversation in which various ideas and thoughts are mentioned, I take these into my subconscious. The following day I may not even remember who said what. Some weeks later my subconscious may generate an idea which leads to an effect that we later produce. That idea will most probably be an amalgam of many other conversations and thoughts. A year or two later someone may look at that effect and think, “hey, I had an idea for that a long time ago”. Should I mention in my credits every possible stepping stone to that effect? I don’t think that is possible. Certainly if an effect has come from a particular source I do mention it. For example ‘Stairway to Hell’. This was one of my first bizarre effects and UK dealer Keith Bennett helped me with the presentation. So he gets a direct credit in the instructions. I think that is fair. Yes, the subject of ideas and inspiration is a very difficult and complex one. I suppose that in the end you must do what your own conscience dictates. After all, a good reputation is hard to achieve but easy to loose. Black Hart
Black Artefacts, manufacturer and dealer of weird, bizarre and psychic magic: www.blackhart.co.uk
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Moonlit Knight Regular user U.S. 113 Posts |
Black Hart - it seems that you and I are of like mind on this issue. I couldn't agree more with your post and especially the statement "they could rip off the format and even the character names, but what they could NOT do was copy the talent of the performers". Excellent!
ELS, as I stated, I understand how it is to be a victim of ideas being taken by people whom were trusted. And I do understand "playing things close to the vest" from here on out. The "idea being played out (without the developing of it as ’you’ have)"as you stated does not discredit or compromise your personal or professional integrity. It might however, call into question the integrity of that person who has taken the idea. This could be likened to the "Crazy Man’s Handcuffs" which was around before Copperfield‘s performance. After Copperfield, it seems like everyone and their brother in magic was performing the rubber band thing. Does the "non magic" person that sees a magician do this trick think - boy, he ripped off Copperfield, or simply - Wow! If it’s done well, that is. I still don’t know what your idea entails but since you are on the bizarrist forum and I’ve gotten into your site, I can imagine. So, there are a few things you could do 1) forget the idea and move on 2) go ahead with your own plans and still perform it 3) bring it to the public arena (there are two ways this could be done, but let me give some background first...) In the 1970’s, Uri Geller, gained popularity by performing all sorts of mental miracles including spoon bending and watch fixing (my apologies to Mr. Geller, I know this description makes him sound like a mad jeweler with an aversion for silverware). James Randi, a.k.a. The Amazing Randi, followed Geller attempting to debunk his claims of the supernatural. Both were hurt in the minds of the others audience / fan base and it’s safe to assume both profited greatly from the publicity generated. As I see it, what Geller presented was magic, thus causing the public to believe in their dreams. And Randi, as a magician exposing trickery, came off to some as the crusher of dreams. The fan club cults that Randi apparently sought to protect the world from still exist. So Randi, failed to convert the masses to the side of skepticism. Today, many people I’ve talked to outside the magic community still remember Geller by name but very few remember Randi at all. If they do, it’s as the guy who does tricks like that psychic. Geller lives on. Need proof? In 2000 his likeness was put onto a "Pokemon" card called "Ungeller", bent spoon and all. Just last month he was on Fox news talking about Michel Jackson but hey, they both have their individual fame. Lessons can be learned here. This is my bases for the following ... Now to the methods - Method 1. would entail exposing the other performer as a charlatan, methods and all. Then going into your bit proving that it’s not the same since you don’t use those "tricks". Unlike Randi’s explanations, you claim or at least suggest that what you do is assisted by your connection to the greater forces. After this, that person may expose your method but then you could give a classic Geller response. If he doesn't, then it could be claimed that his lack of response only proves your claim. Either way, you win and that person comes off in a bad light. This, of course, depends on the mindset of the majority of the people watching and how much they want to believe you over your adversary. (note: this is NOT the approach I would use, but it may suit you depending on your feelings to such things as exposure. Be aware of possible lawsuits. If we are of like mind on this subject, then proceed to Method 2) Method 2. If you are / were friends, this could be extremely workable. Here it is - after both of you have been seen doing your idea, get some footage of each performance and use the video as the basis of the battle. Battle? Yes, battle! Set up some staged challenges against each other in a way to discover who’s forces are greater - a real life "Yu-Gi-Oh!" perhaps (the cartoon network has some wonderful stuff). You both come off ahead financially, no winner, no loser - just let the audience decide for themselves. To make things a bit more lucrative, set up a call-in vote system as to decide who came out ahead. Be sure to split the profits. Every few months or once a year, you could meet in another "Battle of the Mages" event! How’s that for creativity? B.T.W. if you decide on the profitable approach, just don’t forget to cut me in on the profits! Feel free to PM me as to where the check can be sent. O.K.? Any TV executives, producers, etc. reading this should definitely do the same.
"Join the dance... Follow on! With a twist of the world we go."
- Genesis "Dancing With The Moonlit Knight" |
ELS Regular user Chicagoland area, IL 191 Posts |
Hello Black Heart & Moonlit Knight,
1st let me say Thank You to both for the effort put in the responses and I read them both. Moonlit Knight, 1st off I will not expose the individual, that is not me, no matter who it is and I think it's a bit sad when two magicians do just that, as my wife was telling me about the latest Showtime program, sure the Tantra bit sounded funny, but then I guess they ventured in to palm reading and tarot cards.. I did not see it, but still... But as it was said here and I pretty much proven, there are those that will believe, no matter what they are told - and that's good. Mr. Black Heart, I have to say it's an honor to have your input, as I came across your site a year or so ago, and I was very impressed by what your doing. And what you posted here is like a lesson, Thank You. Moonlit Knight, your method #2 sounds good, maybe in the future... Or just go and do my thing with the knowledge posted here by both of you. Thanks Again, Ed Shanahan - http://theunexplainedworld.com
Were the border between the natural and the supernatural will be nothing any more but fuzzy. http://edwardshanahan.com
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