The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The workers » » Classical Force Outs (18 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4 [Next]
Pop Haydn
View Profile
Inner circle
Los Angeles
3134 Posts

Profile of Pop Haydn
The Chicago Surprise is a great routine for practising the Classic Force. Here is a version where the force card isn't taken:

aabc
View Profile
Regular user
126 Posts

Profile of aabc
A bit late, but there are a few suggestions at the end of CC2. One good one is to use the wrong card as a cut card for the criss cross force.
countrymaven
View Profile
Special user
711 Posts

Profile of countrymaven
Harry, I agree. Control the card or force the card. I choose not to have to change plans if the CF doesn't work out. So I do things that will work. Virtually all the time. For you the CF may be fun. In the past, whenever I have chosen a card from a CF, I have never felt I was getting a fair choice.
Melephin
View Profile
New user
75 Posts

Profile of Melephin
Take the "wrong" card back from the spectator. Make the joke, that the card has the same size front and back and by doing so turning the card around. Normally, that's a laugh. Then try again. Or drop the card and try again.

If the second time still didn't work, control the card as Harry as suggested. An "out" is not a way, to do exactly as you planned, even if something went wrong. An "out" means a way to deal with the situation and in this case, is to switch to another routine by controlling the card. I think that is an important part of practicing the CF and not to be neglected.

If you have an out (or several) at the ready and your performance does not relay on that bloody CF that much, you'll be more relaxed. If you're more relaxed, the CF will work better. The spectators smell your tension!
sandromagic
View Profile
New user
52 Posts

Profile of sandromagic
Great ideas mentioned.Thank you !
ASW
View Profile
Inner circle
1858 Posts

Profile of ASW
Quote:
On Mar 9, 2019, Al Schneider wrote:
OK
Let’s get a bit more practical here.
I have been magic since 1960. Since then I have lectured at most major conventions in America. I have written at least a hundred books on magic. While that does not really speak to my capability, it is something. Harry has probably done more than that. Consider that you are not talking to beginners here.

Here is what I am trying to say. Since 1960 I have not seen anyone do the CF with certainty every time. Some guy was running around an Abbot Get together a long time ago and it appeared he could do it 100%. Well, he was using a stacked deck and if he missed the force he could still get the card. He was shocking people.

Now, there are those out there that will tell you the CF can be done 100%. I have not seen it. I have been to several lectures where some expert claimed that was possible. He taught it to everyone in the room. However, when I saw him do it, one of two things happened. First, his hands dropped down out of sight so I could not see what he was doing. Only the person selecting the card saw the action. The other thing I saw was that when the person selected a card and I could see it, this expert jammed the cards into the hand of the spec. There was no doubt why the spec got the right card.

Now, this is what I have observed since 1960. I could be wrong and I expect several will pop up letting me know this.

Anyway, here is a few points about forcing cards.

There are two main reasons for using a force. One is to be able to foretell what card was selected. That is, a note is placed on the table, a card is selected, and the note reveals what the card is. This can take several forms such as the prediction is in a locked box hanging from the ceiling. The other use of a force is to introduce a gimmick necessary for the performance of some effect. For example, you may want to introduce a card that has a magnetic shim in it. If that card appears to be freely selected, the result of the effect is heightened.

Interestingly, if the force is used to predict, the force is the whole effect. Therefore the kind of force is somewhat critical. If the force is to enable the selection of one of many, the type of force is not critical.

Well, my hope here is that you understand that we are not making fun of you. As a new person to magic you have opened a door to a very wide technology. My main purpose here is to reveal the big room you have entered and to point out that some will deceive you about what is possible and what is not.


It’s a shame you never saw Rovi.
Whenever I find myself gripping anything too tightly I just ask myself "How would Guy Hollingworth hold this?"

A magician on the Genii Forum

"I would respect VIPs if they respect history."

Hideo Kato
countrymaven
View Profile
Special user
711 Posts

Profile of countrymaven
Quoting ASW: "Here is what I am trying to say. Since 1960 I have not seen anyone do the CF with certainty every time. Some guy was running around an Abbot Get together a long time ago and it appeared he could do it 100%. Well, he was using a stacked deck and if he missed the force he could still get the card. He was shocking people.

Now, there are those out there that will tell you the CF can be done 100%. I have not seen it. I have been to several lectures where some expert claimed that was possible. He taught it to everyone in the room. However, when I saw him do it, one of two things happened. First, his hands dropped down out of sight so I could not see what he was doing. Only the person selecting the card saw the action. The other thing I saw was that when the person selected a card and I could see it, this expert jammed the cards into the hand of the spec. There was no doubt why the spec got the right card. "

Exactly. And if the force is critical to the effect, you have ruined the effect and have to change your plans. This is needless confusion for yourself. If you love the C force, great. I don't like anything which is not certain. Also, magicians are good at fooling themselves sometimes. When people have pulled the CF on me, I intuitively knew they had controlled the card I chose. There are many forces where the selection is clean, and they can truly change their mind on which card they will take, and it will end up being the one you want. The best thing I would do is suggest you study and try different forces. If you like the CF, good for you. I earn good money at magic and don't like adding confusion and a change in plans to my routines in my show. If you do magic in a one-hit trick format, then the CF might work for you. Not for me.
Steven Keyl
View Profile
Inner circle
Washington, D.C.
2454 Posts

Profile of Steven Keyl
You seem to be saying the CF is an inferior force because you've seen it done poorly by other magicians. If your views are so colored by such motivated reasoning, then there is no constructive way to continue this conversation.

Thank you for coming onto a thread about how to improve one's work in the CF to state that you don't like it and won't use it. I'm sure everyone here is quite interested in an opinion that has nothing to do with the question being asked.
Steven Keyl - The Human Whisperer!

Come visit Magic Book Report.com!

"If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause, and reflect." --Mark Twain
countrymaven
View Profile
Special user
711 Posts

Profile of countrymaven
Hi Steven, I greatly respect your work.
However, some of the greatest help, at times, on the MC, is from differing and different opinions.

Actually the CForces done on me were done by very experienced magicians. it was well done. I just was not convinced I had a truly free choice. I think I stated that it is fine if you like the CF. I can accept that. For me, there are cleaner forces where someone can change their mind on what card they want. This is convincing to me. Yet still a force. Can be done many ways, gimmicked and non gimmicked.

I did point out, with an experienced magi's opinion, that it is not 100%. That is why you need outs. That is fine if you like it.
For shows I do, there are too many distractions to have to change course due to needing an out. Especially if a big effect is "riding" on a force. I fully respect you if you have a differing opinion.
magicfish
View Profile
Inner circle
5933 Posts

Profile of magicfish
Quote:
On May 5, 2019, countrymaven wrote:
Quoting ASW: "Here is what I am trying to say. Since 1960 I have not seen anyone do the CF with certainty every time. Some guy was running around an Abbot Get together a long time ago and it appeared he could do it 100%. Well, he was using a stacked deck and if he missed the force he could still get the card. He was shocking people.

Now, there are those out there that will tell you the CF can be done 100%. I have not seen it. I have been to several lectures where some expert claimed that was possible. He taught it to everyone in the room. However, when I saw him do it, one of two things happened. First, his hands dropped down out of sight so I could not see what he was doing. Only the person selecting the card saw the action. The other thing I saw was that when the person selected a card and I could see it, this expert jammed the cards into the hand of the spec. There was no doubt why the spec got the right card. "

Exactly. And if the force is critical to the effect, you have ruined the effect and have to change your plans. This is needless confusion for yourself. If you love the C force, great. I don't like anything which is not certain. Also, magicians are good at fooling themselves sometimes. When people have pulled the CF on me, I intuitively knew they had controlled the card I chose. There are many forces where the selection is clean, and they can truly change their mind on which card they will take, and it will end up being the one you want. The best thing I would do is suggest you study and try different forces. If you like the CF, good for you. I earn good money at magic and don't like adding confusion and a change in plans to my routines in my show. If you do magic in a one-hit trick format, then the CF might work for you. Not for me.


Funny. Paul Daniels relied on it day in day out on live television in front of millions of home viewers. He earned fairly decent money at magic too I suppose- but I guess 7 figures isn’t what it used to be.
countrymaven
View Profile
Special user
711 Posts

Profile of countrymaven
Amen. If you read my post, I am allowing for your freedom in making a choice. I am not trying to "classic force" a solution on you. You would be able to tell you are being forced into one option. I don't need any outs. Make your own choice. Choose whatever "out" works for you if the classic force proves not to be 100%. But you can't do a trick depending on a prophetic trick with a matching dramatic ending, if it depends on the CF working every time. You will have to drop it and go for a different, lesser (most likely) ending. Also, in Paul Daniels' day, people were more gullible and easier to fool. They would take whatever card from a fan you shoved into their paws. It was monkey see, monkey do, time. With the internet and all it reveals, it is actually helpful to have a force not everyone knows about. IMHO. H is for humble. I am not omniscient. If you think you are , good for you.

It is helpful to get a different perspective.
You are free to decide, in this country if it works for you or not. It is simple minded to point out something worked for one magician. It didn't every time. But you weren't there to see it.
Steven Keyl
View Profile
Inner circle
Washington, D.C.
2454 Posts

Profile of Steven Keyl
Fair enough. You're correct, I didn't see what you saw. If I had, my opinion may be different now. I apologize for my earlier snarkiness, I may have inferred context that wasn't there, or wasn't intended. Looking back on it I hate being someone who is contributing to the friction here instead of mending it, which I succeed in doing most of the time.

It's difficult to articulate a position defending a move where my own handling of it is layered and nuanced. When I perform the CF, it comes in "two flavors" if you will. The first is the traditional CF, this is the one most of us are debating. My "first hit" success rate with this move is close to 97% (I miss it about 1 time in 30). The other 3% of the time, I am able to move into one of several "outs" that don't make it feel like the process has changed in any way and feels every bit as fair as the CF itself. I've had more than one magician comment to me that my CF doesn't feel like a CF, which is the only evidence I can offer that it can be a move that doesn't feel like someone is just "putting the card in your hand."

The second version of my CF is a more deliberate force where I spread through the cards more slowly than the classic CF. It can feel fairer than the classic CF to a skeptical audience member (or magician). The "outs" are the same as the first version of the CF but again, with my scripting and handling it never feels to the participant like the process has changed. The only real difference besides seeming fairer to certain people, is that my first hit rate drops to about 80%. Again, this is not a problem because in the other 20% of cases, I revert to a force that feels every bit as fair. "If it's just as fair, then why not use them to begin with?" Several reasons, actually, but I don't want this to drag on too long.

The outs I use may be the ones you are advocating for in place of the CF. In that case, the only difference between our handlings is that 97% (or 80%) of the time, the initial card they select is the force card, and no further handling is required. In the other 3% (or 20%) of cases, our handling probably looks nearly identical, or at least I would guess so.

We agree you should use what works for you. My main point is that just because a "first hit" success rate does not equal 100%, does NOT mean the CF MUST be abandoned in favor of other forces, because there is more than one way to skin this cat.

Best wishes, countrymaven, and again my apologies for being a !@#$%^& earlier. Good thoughts.
Steven Keyl - The Human Whisperer!

Come visit Magic Book Report.com!

"If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause, and reflect." --Mark Twain
countrymaven
View Profile
Special user
711 Posts

Profile of countrymaven
Card Master Stephen Kyle has a video on classic force outs. It is masterful. Highly recommended.
magicfish
View Profile
Inner circle
5933 Posts

Profile of magicfish
Quote:
On May 5, 2019, countrymaven wrote:
Amen. If you read my post, I am allowing for your freedom in making a choice. I am not trying to "classic force" a solution on you. You would be able to tell you are being forced into one option. I don't need any outs. Make your own choice. Choose whatever "out" works for you if the classic force proves not to be 100%. But you can't do a trick depending on a prophetic trick with a matching dramatic ending, if it depends on the CF working every time. You will have to drop it and go for a different, lesser (most likely) ending. Also, in Paul Daniels' day, people were more gullible and easier to fool. They would take whatever card from a fan you shoved into their paws. It was monkey see, monkey do, time. With the internet and all it reveals, it is actually helpful to have a force not everyone knows about. IMHO. H is for humble. I am not omniscient. If you think you are , good for you.

It is helpful to get a different perspective.
You are free to decide, in this country if it works for you or not. It is simple minded to point out something worked for one magician. It didn't every time. But you weren't there to see it.

I disagree. Your lack of respect for Paul's audiences is simple minded.
Paul Daniels performed for millions of people for decades and attained great heights as an entertainer. They didn't have paws and they weren't monkeys.
Daniels was a master. Internet or no internet. And he used the Classic Force all the time, under fire, live, with everything at stake.
countrymaven
View Profile
Special user
711 Posts

Profile of countrymaven
I also am a fan of Daniels. But I am in a different time and place than that era. How about you?
If I have a prophetic revelation which demands a dramatic clean ending, I would rather have a card clearly chosen with the chance to change it at any time. After having shown the cards to be different. I mean where they literally can grab a different card.

So it is that some effects I do play better when it is quite obvious they had what seemed to be a completely free choice and they could have, for example, chosen and of the cards on the table without interference from me. For me it has to do with the effect; it is not about how much you love the CF or not. I use the CF sometimes, but for certain effects, it can create more problems than it is worth.

A recent survey on forces showed that a hands off force was the most convincing. It helps to prove indirectly that a hands off force is convincing to the spectators , according to recent studies.
magicfish
View Profile
Inner circle
5933 Posts

Profile of magicfish
Fortunately the Classic Force is timeless. Spreading the pack between the hands to have one selected is a natural, logical action.
The CF is a great tool. Tool selection is vital in the construction of any effect. Obviously, different tools for different jobs.
Be weary of any "studies" that purport to reveal what laymen think is most fair.
davidpaul$
View Profile
Inner circle
Pittsburgh, Pa
2816 Posts

Profile of davidpaul$
On a recent interview with David Williamson he mentions practicing the CF when you don't have to.
That way you can get comfortable with casualness,timing and spectator responses. Over time you can get a real good feel as well as instinct.

I sometimes spread cards face up and have someone choose a card at random. I'm surprised how many people picks cards from the center of the spread where a card is a little more exposed.I just do it for fun. No reason. Garrett Thomas forced a card on me several times from a face up spread. I was floored. It was so natural and I really thought I had a free choice. I even changed my mind.

Like Harry Lorayne and Paul Green mention there are soooo many routines where a spectator can choose any card (non forced) and have a WOW!!! ending. I use Doc Eason's slip cut when I HAVE to be sure fire.
If you can't help worrying, remember worrying can't help you!
countrymaven
View Profile
Special user
711 Posts

Profile of countrymaven
Ok I will spill the beans. I developed what I consider to be a refined cull force I use. Often a cull force is exposed or semi exposed. There are many ways of doing it badly. So the cull force is often a second rate "junk force." In the hands of most who do it.
But I have refined it. You show them the cards, cull through them, let them pick one, then show them face up, etc. They see they get a different card every time. Next you force a card. I have solved the problems of the cull force. There is no difference between this and picking a card as you go through them.
It is as clean as the Classical Force, but it works every time. No bad angles.

So basically I am doing what looks like the Classical force, but it works every time.

Again, without subtleties and refinements, nobody would choose the cull force. But it kills if it is refined. No cards partly exposed, no angle problems. And the spectator can see what is happening , before your force.
countrymaven
View Profile
Special user
711 Posts

Profile of countrymaven
Also, a note to the above. They can keep their card too. To the spectator there is no difference between this and
the classical force. The difference to me is that they get the force card every time, even though they can pick and choose for their final choice.
Trust me there is a lot of sloppy cull work. One of the big names, the famous one of the "best fastest" cull can be seen exposing it sometimes in his videos. So it is significant that a cull force needs to be refined so it is absolutely clean and invisible every time.
Mr Salk
View Profile
Elite user
415 Posts

Profile of Mr Salk
Cull and Classic are not even the same species. I suspect their progeny would be impotent.
.


.
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The workers » » Classical Force Outs (18 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2019 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.26 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL