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Harry Lorayne
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Good Lord! Just CONTROL the selected card - via key card, via shuffling control, via anything --- just control the card.
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adrianrbf
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Quote:
On Mar 5, 2019, Steven Keyl wrote:
A comment I make in that download is that it isn't always feasible to just "switch to another trick."

Thank you for you valuable insight and patricularly for showing that my question is less strange than some seem to think. I will definitely buy this download, as soon as a allow myself a new magical budget. ;-)
Al Schneider
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I understand that this forum is valuable for magicians new to the art.
That is, this is a place to share and learn.
So, here is a suggestion, do not construct a routine in which a force must work or the trick will fail.
There are at least a 1000 books out there with good material that will serve you well.
Harry has written several of them.
Magic Al. Say it fast and it is magical.
adrianrbf
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Quote:
On Mar 9, 2019, Al Schneider wrote:
So, here is a suggestion, do not construct a routine in which a force must work or the trick will fail.

Actually, my main concern is to practice the CF, and to do so I need a way out (or rather, several totally different ways out) if it does not work.

My new approach is to actually PLAN another "pick a card"-trick and still try a CF, just in case.
Harry Lorayne
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He doesn't want to read them, Al - just wants to spend his time practicing the CF, while everyone else is fooling he heck out of people using "good stuff" out of my books that do NOT necessitate a CF. Would be okay for some, but not essential.
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adrianrbf
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Quote:
On Mar 9, 2019, Harry Lorayne wrote:
He doesn't want to read then, Al

Actually, there are a number of books on my shelf - well, rather e-books and videos on my virtual shelf. That's not the problem.

I just don't quite get why you think my question is so strange, and in how far a very general and unspecific advice like "read the good stuff" should be of any help.
Harry Lorayne
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Yeah, that IS the problem. And it's very specific advice - but obviously, you don't want to "take" it. That's fine - keep practicing that CF.
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Al Schneider
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OK
Let’s get a bit more practical here.
I have been magic since 1960. Since then I have lectured at most major conventions in America. I have written at least a hundred books on magic. While that does not really speak to my capability, it is something. Harry has probably done more than that. Consider that you are not talking to beginners here.

Here is what I am trying to say. Since 1960 I have not seen anyone do the CF with certainty every time. Some guy was running around an Abbot Get together a long time ago and it appeared he could do it 100%. Well, he was using a stacked deck and if he missed the force he could still get the card. He was shocking people.

Now, there are those out there that will tell you the CF can be done 100%. I have not seen it. I have been to several lectures where some expert claimed that was possible. He taught it to everyone in the room. However, when I saw him do it, one of two things happened. First, his hands dropped down out of sight so I could not see what he was doing. Only the person selecting the card saw the action. The other thing I saw was that when the person selected a card and I could see it, this expert jammed the cards into the hand of the spec. There was no doubt why the spec got the right card.

Now, this is what I have observed since 1960. I could be wrong and I expect several will pop up letting me know this.

Anyway, here is a few points about forcing cards.

There are two main reasons for using a force. One is to be able to foretell what card was selected. That is, a note is placed on the table, a card is selected, and the note reveals what the card is. This can take several forms such as the prediction is in a locked box hanging from the ceiling. The other use of a force is to introduce a gimmick necessary for the performance of some effect. For example, you may want to introduce a card that has a magnetic shim in it. If that card appears to be freely selected, the result of the effect is heightened.

Interestingly, if the force is used to predict, the force is the whole effect. Therefore the kind of force is somewhat critical. If the force is to enable the selection of one of many, the type of force is not critical.

Well, my hope here is that you understand that we are not making fun of you. As a new person to magic you have opened a door to a very wide technology. My main purpose here is to reveal the big room you have entered and to point out that some will deceive you about what is possible and what is not.
Magic Al. Say it fast and it is magical.
gillesA4
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Mr. Schneider,
I ran into this thread by chance last week and for the first time I heard of this book of yours about card forces. I purchased it and I'm extremely glad I did; I also noticed at least ten books of yours I never heard of, so I thought I might not be the only one...
Oh, all these coins on the floor, around me...
Steven Keyl
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So Al says that when I say the CF is 100% reliable, I'm being deceptive. Hmmm... I'm going to choose to ignore this attack on my character and get back to the point.

The reason people don't perform the CF more is they erroneously feel it is too unreliable. My point is that if you know what you're doing, it IS 100% reliable. I haven't missed the CF in years, not because I'm a better card handler than anyone else, but because I've planned for every contingency. Those that have reviewed the download agree it is an excellent resource to further your knowledge of the CF, including Paul Green, whose excellent DVD on the CF should be in every card handler's library.

It is disheartening when a legitimate question about a standard card magic sleight turns into a platform for the elder statesmen of the Café to hijack the thread, mock the poster's question, and impugn the integrity of those that seek to answer that question.

So take heart, Adrian, because it is absolutely a legitimate question, and one that some have put some thought into. Good thoughts.
Steven Keyl - The Human Whisperer!

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magicfish
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Quote:
On Mar 9, 2019, Al Schneider wrote:
OK
Let’s get a bit more practical here.
I have been magic since 1960. Since then I have lectured at most major conventions in America. I have written at least a hundred books on magic. While that does not really speak to my capability, it is something. Harry has probably done more than that. Consider that you are not talking to beginners here.

Here is what I am trying to say. Since 1960 I have not seen anyone do the CF with certainty every time. Some guy was running around an Abbot Get together a long time ago and it appeared he could do it 100%. Well, he was using a stacked deck and if he missed the force he could still get the card. He was shocking people.

Now, there are those out there that will tell you the CF can be done 100%. I have not seen it. I have been to several lectures where some expert claimed that was possible. He taught it to everyone in the room. However, when I saw him do it, one of two things happened. First, his hands dropped down out of sight so I could not see what he was doing. Only the person selecting the card saw the action. The other thing I saw was that when the person selected a card and I could see it, this expert jammed the cards into the hand of the spec. There was no doubt why the spec got the right card.

Now, this is what I have observed since 1960. I could be wrong and I expect several will pop up letting me know this.

Anyway, here is a few points about forcing cards.

There are two main reasons for using a force. One is to be able to foretell what card was selected. That is, a note is placed on the table, a card is selected, and the note reveals what the card is. This can take several forms such as the prediction is in a locked box hanging from the ceiling. The other use of a force is to introduce a gimmick necessary for the performance of some effect. For example, you may want to introduce a card that has a magnetic shim in it. If that card appears to be freely selected, the result of the effect is heightened.

Interestingly, if the force is used to predict, the force is the whole effect. Therefore the kind of force is somewhat critical. If the force is to enable the selection of one of many, the type of force is not critical.

Well, my hope here is that you understand that we are not making fun of you. As a new person to magic you have opened a door to a very wide technology. My main purpose here is to reveal the big room you have entered and to point out that some will deceive you about what is possible and what is not.

Excellent post Mr. Schneider. Thankyou for sharing your wisdom on this.
Al Schneider
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Steven

So, I viewed a Youtube clip you posted.

https://youtu.be/NbZpdbfZJ7E

Can’t you see that you make my point.

The clip is about what to do when you miss the CF

This looks like a very good DVD. I would probably recommend it if I viewed it.

And this post is a plug for it.

I did mention that I could be wrong about my opinion.

However, you indicate that I am 100% wrong.

It must be nice to be 100% right.
Magic Al. Say it fast and it is magical.
Harry Lorayne
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For me - the Classic Force works much better when I turn my back to the spectator - hands/deck go behind my back, etc. (Psychologically better.) I always start my Ambitious Card routine that way. I do so and talk about the force on one of my "Best Ever" DVDs.
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Al Schneider
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Here is my real problem.

I have sat in lectures attended by many people in a prestigious convention and the lecturer told the audience that the CF can be done and anyone that doesn’t use it is a fool.

I cannot do the classic force.

Ergo, I am a fool.

It is my wish that beginner’s in magic are not subjected to the disgrace I have been subjected to
Magic Al. Say it fast and it is magical.
The Burnaby Kid
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Ok, DIALING THINGS BACK to a time when our mutual love was Miss Direction and not that slut Miss Understanding, can we agree that whatever technique is used has to be put in some context?

I have a card selected, I can find it, there's a number of methods. I have a card selected, I show it printed on my T-Shirt, I have significantly fewer methods. What's more, if the effect suggests that a card was forced, that can further puts heat on the selection procedure even in retrospect.

I don't classic force either, simply because I don't want to go through the process of having an out, either in terms of method or effect, and because my usual effect for it strongly suggests that a card was forced, I want to be able to get them to change their mind on the card they initially select, if they so choose. Yes, one can do this with the classic force as well, but now we're in bluff territory rather than 100% safe territory. This also means, though, that you lose out on the straightforwardness of a well classic forced card, and that's something you have to live with. I don't say that lightly.

I think it's safe to say that this stuff can be agreed upon without angering anybody's position on the classic force, whether it's pro- or anti- or agnostic. But what say y'all?
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Al Schneider
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Absolutely great, continue.
Magic Al. Say it fast and it is magical.
Steven Keyl
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Quote:
On Mar 10, 2019, The Burnaby Kid wrote:
I don't classic force either, simply because I don't want to go through the process of having an out, either in terms of method or effect, and because my usual effect for it strongly suggests that a card was forced, I want to be able to get them to change their mind on the card they initially select, if they so choose. Yes, one can do this with the classic force as well, but now we're in bluff territory rather than 100% safe territory. This also means, though, that you lose out on the straightforwardness of a well classic forced card, and that's something you have to live with. I don't say that lightly.


The way I go about things accommodates either a relatively quick and casual... or slow and deliberate process allowing people to change their mind as much as they want. It's the same basic framework that is malleable enough to handle either situation. So, yes, this allows for people to change their mind with as much deliberation as they want and still end up with the force card. Or, the same procedure can allow for a 3 second selection process. For me, it's not about making a choice of either...or.

Quote:
On Mar 10, 2019, Al Schneider wrote:
Here is my real problem.

I have sat in lectures attended by many people in a prestigious convention and the lecturer told the audience that the CF can be done and anyone that doesn’t use it is a fool.


I agree. If you don't want to use it, don't use it. And anyone that berates others for using (or not using) a given move is someone that has trouble seeing beyond the limited veil of their own experience.

My only point in this thread is to say, if the only reason someone doesn't perform the classic force is because they don't think it's reliable enough, I'd like to give them some food for thought.
Steven Keyl - The Human Whisperer!

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"If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause, and reflect." --Mark Twain
The Burnaby Kid
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Quote:
On Mar 10, 2019, Steven Keyl wrote:

The way I go about things accommodates either a relatively quick and casual... or slow and deliberate process allowing people to change their mind as much as they want. It's the same basic framework that is malleable enough to handle either situation. So, yes, this allows for people to change their mind with as much deliberation as they want and still end up with the force card. Or, the same procedure can allow for a 3 second selection process. For me, it's not about making a choice of either...or.



I mean, I'll bite, because you're historically trustworthy. Are you saying that you can classic force in a situation where they might change their mind and take a different card and it's 100%? I can see this with transitioning into another method, if that's what you're suggesting...?
A screed for scams, sorcery, and other shenanigans... Nu Way Magick Blogge

JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
Rupert Pupkin
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Quote:
On Mar 11, 2019, The Burnaby Kid wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 10, 2019, Steven Keyl wrote:

The way I go about things accommodates either a relatively quick and casual... or slow and deliberate process allowing people to change their mind as much as they want. It's the same basic framework that is malleable enough to handle either situation. So, yes, this allows for people to change their mind with as much deliberation as they want and still end up with the force card. Or, the same procedure can allow for a 3 second selection process. For me, it's not about making a choice of either...or.



I mean, I'll bite, because you're historically trustworthy. Are you saying that you can classic force in a situation where they might change their mind and take a different card and it's 100%? I can see this with transitioning into another method, if that's what you're suggesting...?


That's the fundamental weakness of the classic force. You can't allow for that.

Gee, Burnaby, this has a familiar ring to it...
Steven Keyl
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Quote:
On Mar 11, 2019, The Burnaby Kid wrote:

I mean, I'll bite, because you're historically trustworthy. Are you saying that you can classic force in a situation where they might change their mind and take a different card and it's 100%? I can see this with transitioning into another method, if that's what you're suggesting...?


You are correct.

Take the case where I want to highlight the selection process with a slow, deliberate, procedure (using your example, let's say it's printed on a T-shirt so you want to emphasize the fairness of the selection). I make a great show of moving SLOWLY through the deck and ask them to choose any card they want. Even in this case, I typically hit the force, and I will outjog it and ask them if they want to change their mind. (I have a two-word phrase that prevents them from changing their mind. I can't remember ever using it and then had a person change their mind--and it doesn't feel like I'm trying to stop them from changing their mind--those two words ARE magic!)

Back to the point, let's say this is a one in a thousand that wants to change their mind, I ask them if they want to move up or down from their current selection, or start all over from scratch. Their answer determines which force I transition into. These other forces are terrific and many use them as stand-alone forces. For me, they work great in conjunction with the CF for those unusual occasions.

The issue that trips up many people from using the CF is not knowing exactly what to do in one of the oddball situations. If you do know what to do, you'll be more comfortable, and that lack of tension results in greater success with the initial CF, because you don't have the anxiety you might otherwise have.

(As an aside, all of these things are only part of the first pillar in my video--the TECHNICAL OUTS. In cases where I miss due to timing or if someone is particularly picky, I generally use a technique from the second pillar, the PSYCHOLOGICAL OUTS, as I find it quicker and easier. But the larger point is that there are many ways to skin the cat, which don't involve throwing out the entire procedure.)
Steven Keyl - The Human Whisperer!

Come visit Magic Book Report.com!

"If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause, and reflect." --Mark Twain
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