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adrianrbf
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OK, I have never watched a hypnosis show.

However, I took some sessions of hypnotherapy some years ago. So I have some idea what it feels like to be hypnotized. My hypnotherapist clearly told me that hypnotherapy is different from show hypnosis. As does every hypnotherapy website by each and every hypnotherapist I have ever looked at. I told my hypnotherapist that I had never watched a hypnosis show, but that I still understood what he was talking about: There are some books, mainly comics and thrillers, that paint a really inadequate picture of hypnosis: They feature an Evil Overlord Hypnotist trying to rule the world using hypnosis to control his army of will-less warriours.

As far as I know, hypnotherapy does not (or no longer) understand itself as an authoritarian method where the hypnotist imposes his will on the hypnotee. However, according to many hypnotherapists, show hypnosis still works according that line.

This is, I would say, a question of performance style: "I am the Oh So Powerful Hypnotist and I can impose my will on the volunteers" is a possible narrative of a hypnosis show, and with the right setting and the right process of choosing volunteers, this will probably work. However, is this really the performance style that today's show hypnotists apply? And if not, what are the ylternatives? What other performance styles do you apply, or have you tried?
WitchDocChris
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Admittedly, I've only seen a few comedy hypnosis shows (which is all you can really find in the US apparently). Every example I've seen in person or online has been fairly authoritative, but the style of authority presented has changed over the decades.

What I've seen of contemporary shows, the hypnotist is very much in charge and tells the committee what they will be doing pretty bluntly. There's no need for the "Artfully Vague" approach of Erickson in a show - you want it to be clear so the show proceeds as planned.

I will openly admit that Dannydoyle and Mindpro have vastly more experience in presenting hypnosis shows, and I assume they will also give their thoughts as well. My hypnotic demonstrations use a mixture of permissive and authoritative that I learned from Mike Mandel. I don't do comedy, though. I use it to show how powerful the mind and imagination can be when properly focused.
Christopher
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Mindpro
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I wasn't going to reply to this post as lately many are posting to flame or not with the purest of interest or intentions, or only want "tricks that look like hypnosis" but since you mentioned us, here my quick insight on this.

Hypnosis has several instantly present issues and misconceptions about it. Those of us that perform hypnosis regularly and have for decades know that this is present and at play at each and every show we perform.

The 3 things that immediately come to mind are:

1. The public's misperception of hypnosis, what it is and what it isn't, and the many misrepresented things people (usually with no knowledge education, or actual experience) think, say, and believe about hypnosis. The "Evil Overlord Hypnotist trying to rule the world using hypnosis to control his army of will-less warriours" comes from old movies, books, and the media's portrayal of hypnosis for decades ago (1930's - 60's). Often this portrayed hypnosis as a "power" the hypnotist had over the subject, often used as evil.

2. The long-time struggle and debate between Hypnotherapists and Stage Hypnotists. Hypnotherapists believe it is not hypnosis, that it discredits the industry, and on stage guest are just playing along for their moment in the spotlight. Stage Hypnotists understand just the opposite. We know that because of the many misconceptions about hypnosis, people think of Hypnotherapists as a last resort, unconventional or even as a whack sort of science. In reality, people come into our shows with the same expectations. They aren't sure or are quite skeptical. What happens, however, is a good hypnotist will dispell these misconceptions the audience will see hypnosis executed right before their eyes (often with perhaps someone the know volunteering on stage who they KNOW would never act, play along, or do the things they are seeing in their own life or by faking). They see the process, they get a real and true understanding of what hypnosis is and how it works. Then they begin to see the larger picture - that the same hypnosis we just used for fun and entertainment, is the same thing that can be used to help them with weight loss, stopping smoking, changing of bad habits, or a wide variety of behavior modifications. They now see the real potential - they see the light! Then what happens is we leave town with our show, but these realizations and effects remain, so they now contact the local Hypnotherapist wiuth their new-found information and seek help with their problems or areas of interest. Stage hypnotists can bring awareness, the proper education, and a better understanding to those who bought into the popular misconceptions. Our work can often help Hypnotherapists if they are open to seeing the true greater picture. I have received some letters from local Hyonotheraists thanking me and stating this realization. However, the industry itself still hasn't gotten there and see the Stage Hypnosis as the enemy insread of a peer.

3. That those in a hypnosis show are just playing along. Again, in a true live show by a properly skilled Stage Hypnotist, this is quickly dispelled and realized not to be true. When subjects are that relaxed, loose, and limp, and most of all suggestible and are also showing the physical elements of one in deep hypnosis, it is quite easy to see and distinguish those truly hypnotized and anyone that may be there to play along to challenge the hypnotist. In my show, as most others, they are quickly dismissed from the stage.

I think regarding the "powerful" and "control" position of stage hypnotists this is mostly a thing of the past. Most good stage hypnotists know to step aside and let the subjects become the stars of the show. No power is needed or required. Sure some newbies, usually DJs, comedians, or magicians-tuned hypnotist may fall into this type of presentation, but as my friend and mentor Ormond McGill often said, be aware of god-like syndrome or the "I have special powers" approach and it is very discrediting, and often demeaning to both the audience and subjects. In fact, he often preferred just the opposite with his Angel approach to hypnosis.

The authoritarian approach I don't see that much of anymore. Perhaps with an occasional Hypnotherapist which I think they often confuse confidence with authority. Hypnosis is about connecting and relating to people. Building a trust and rapport with them. The authoritarian approach works again much of this. Also remember, most Hypnotherapists are terrible stage hypnotists ( for many reasons, mostly obvious), but many stage hypnotists can be decent Hypnotherapists, which of course, is a point of contention with Hypnotherapists as well.

I agree that much of your (the OP) perceptions are base don you never having seen a stage hypnosis show - then a good stage hypnosis show at that. Most hypnosis shows these days are not good, quality and properly executed shows. As someone who also trains stage hypnosis, I see more sub-standard shows than good ones consistently. Look at youtube to see just what I mean. The way stage hypnosis is presented and taught these days accounts for much of this.
Wravyn
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After you have read Mindpro's answer, let it digest and then reread it. There is so much information in that answer, it will take a couple of reads to gather all of it.
Thank you Mindpro.
WitchDocChris
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Well put, Mindpro.
Christopher
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adrianrbf
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Thank you, Mindpro, for this elaborate answer. Please be assured that I have no intention whatsoever to be involved in flaming or the like.

Just one thought: Since there are, as you mention yourself, a lot of mediocre hypnosis shows out there, I wouldn't be too harsh with hypnotherapists who have a low opinion of stage hypnosis. After all, they may not have seen the really good shows yet. I am convinced that a well-trained hypnotherapist spot the difference between a well-done stage hypnosis and some crappy act.

Having said that, there are big differences among hypnotherapists, too. In my opinion, the major "enemy" of the good hypnotherapist, who has gone through extensive hypnosis training in addition to his/her medical/psychological/coaching education, is not the stage hypnotist, but the bad hypnotherapist. With "bad hypnotherapist" I mean the presumptuous "I did a weekend course in Ultra-Deep Mega-Powerful Super Hypnosis, thus anything your psychoanalist does in two years, I can achieve in two hours" sort of hypnotherapist.

Do you have any youtube or similar links to really good show hypnosis acts in the style you mention?
Mindpro
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On Mar 11, 2019, adrianrbf wrote:
Thank you, Mindpro, for this elaborate answer. Please be assured that I have no intention whatsoever to be involved in flaming or the like.

Just one thought: Since there are, as you mention yourself, a lot of mediocre hypnosis shows out there, I wouldn't be too harsh with hypnotherapists who have a low opinion of stage hypnosis. After all, they may not have seen the really good shows yet. I am convinced that a well-trained hypnotherapist spot the difference between a well-done stage hypnosis and some crappy act.

Having said that, there are big differences among hypnotherapists, too. In my opinion, the major "enemy" of the good hypnotherapist, who has gone through extensive hypnosis training in addition to his/her medical/psychological/coaching education, is not the stage hypnotist, but the bad hypnotherapist. With "bad hypnotherapist" I mean the presumptuous "I did a weekend course in Ultra-Deep Mega-Powerful Super Hypnosis, thus anything your psychoanalist does in two years, I can achieve in two hours" sort of hypnotherapist.

Do you have any youtube or similar links to really good show hypnosis acts in the style you mention?



Thanks for your thoughts and perspectives. Forgive my hesitation as there have been many popping in here that are uneducated with hypnosis and yet try to tell others "how it is." This combined with the recent trend of magicians trying to find magic to look like hypnosis has also been quite present here, so please understand my reluctance.

Also, understand that this forum is not to discuss hypnotherapy, so I also tend to refrain from posts/threads of discussions about it. However, since this thread wasn't about application or methods of Hypnotherapy and just comparison of perspectives, and WitchDocChris mentioned myself, I thought it ok to chime in. No offence meant.

I understand your thoughts about "not being too hard on hypnotherapists" who have a low opinion of stage hypnosis because they may have not seen good stage hypnosis. While this is likely true, this really still isn't the problem. They haven't because they haven't even likely given it a chance or understand it to the level of being able to understand the difference between a good and bad performance.

You must remember, the only commonality between hypnotherapists and stage hypnosis is the actual hypnosis itself, which in reality is a very small part of stage hypnosis. Because of that, they tend to only look at this one single dynamic and finding fault with it and it's execution without the proper knowledge and understanding of the "whys" behind it. They look at it through the eyes of only a hypnotherapist and clinical application. They don't understand that it is not intended to be the same as it has been altered and adapted to its use and dynamic for performance and what a proper performance requires. They seem incapable of understanding this. Whereas most quality stage hypnotists understand this first and foremost, that it is about entertaining first and foremost. Hypnosis is simply the tool or discipline used to achieve that.

Also most decent, quality stage hypnotists also are qualified and certified in hypnotherapy, so they do see both sides of the coin more fairly and understandably. You must also realize this divide comes from the Hypnotherapists, not stage hypnotists. They are the ones opposing, teaching and preaching against the acceptance of stage hypnosis. The only problem stage hypnosis have with them (hypnotherapists) is when they get contacted by local high schools or community groups to perform at a community event or post-prom or grad night, and even though they have no knowledge or experience in this area, they accept the booking (and the money). They, of course, do poorly, often terribly, because they do not know how to work with and handle large groups, they lose control of the teenagers, and of course, and most importantly...THEY ARE NOT ENTERTAINERS!

I think hypnotherapy education and certification should include a module and requirement in having to execute stage hypnosis. First, I think it has many excellent properties they could use and adapt in their practice and execution of hypnosis for their clients/patients. Secondly, it could better acclimate them to working with groups and beyond just one on one that they get comfortable with... and

Thirdly, it could show them how to better apply hypnosis to the many different types of potential subjects, rather just staying in their comfort zone with their often same and repeated elements (inductions, deepening, response, dialog and formatting, and so much more.)

In reality, a deeper study of stage hypnosis and its benefits to hypnotherapists could be greatly beneficial to hypnotherapists and to the relation between them and the stage hypnosis community. A mutual respect and understanding could go a long way and better hypnosis overall.

The one thing I do agree with many hypnotherapists on is the fact of the lowering of the bar and the wave of every Tom, Dick, and Harry becoming "hypnotists" of either type. The weekend courses and quick-study programs have basically allowed anyone with an interest and $297 dollars to
believe they are a hypnotist. It is the same as magic. Any kid that gets a magic set or sven deck for their 7th birthday thinks they are a magician. Look at almost any magician's bio or about us page and they often clearly state "I first started in magic at the age of 7 (or 8, etc.) There is no barrier to becoming a magician and the same has been happening with hypnosis.

On the issue of good vs, bad stage hypnosis that again is because of the training. You can learn the hypnosis part quite easily. Rarely is it ever properly taught on how to entertain with hypnosis. Most stage hypnotists these days are not entertainers, they are simply executors of very basic hypnosis on stage. They rely on the "entertainment" to come from the hypnosis and basic response from the subjects. They are not entertainers and really do not know how to entertain by themselves, let alone with the use of hypnosis.

No, I do not view youtube to recommend any good stage hypnosis performances. As a matter of fact, I blame youtube (and the posting of poor hypnosis from guys that don't even realize how bad they are) for a part of the current trend that perpetuates more bad hypnosis. I keep my performances off of youtube, websites, and anywhere online for this and several other reasons due to the trend.

Good stage hypnosis can be a great learning tool for hypnotherapists and of course, stage performers can also learn a good foundation from them as well. There are many more benefits and advantages to operating as peers and supporting each other than trying to continue the existing divide between us (my daughter and I are both certified Hypnotherapists, though we no longer have a practice.)
Dannydoyle
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There are LOTS of reasons for the divide between stage and therapeutic hypnosis.

I am not going to get into it but there are 2 distinct types of "hypnotherapists". One are those who know what can and can't be done. People who are educated at university level about these things and stay in the lane.

Then there are the weekend course guys who just want to jam clients through and offer fake "cures" to things that can simply NOT be cured by hypnosis. Behavior modification through hypnosis is simply put bunk. It is snake oil and nobody should be selling cures for ANYTHING through hypnosis.

Hypnotherapy and the stage hypnosis show are about as similar as lightening and the lightening bug. Even the process itself differs radically. On stage you have MINUTES to get people into trance and working. In an office you can do it over the course of weeks. It simply is different.

The differences are just tremendous. There is no comparison. This is why so many therapists fail so badly at the stage, and why so many stage hypnotists are so bad at therapy. They think it is the same thing and it is simply not true.

As for what to be on stage that is just up to the individual. It is unique to every performer. Much like any performance it is in the end PERFORMANCE so you find a character and stick to it.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
adrianrbf
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I appreciate these insightful comments, which illuminate interesting aspects of hypnosis both in the therapy setting and on stage.

However, let me come back to my original post and its question.

It seems to me that each and every hypnotist, be they show hypnotists or hypnotherapist or both, agree that the general public has some strange misconceptions about what hypnosis is and how it works. There is, however, disagreement about who is responsible for these misconception.

Hypnotherapists usually claim that show hypnotists are responsible for the misconception.

My concern is to look at this in another way. My claim is that mainly the following are responsible for general misconceptions about hypnosis:
1) Movies and books that feature a "hypnotist as evil overlord" plot;
2) Weekend course hypnotists who promise completely unrealistic cures through hypnosis;
3) the fraction of show hypnotists who build their presentaton along the "powerful hypnotist controls the will of the hypnotee" narrative.

What I am actually interested in, and why I brought this up, is the presentation style of those show hypnotists who do NOT belong to the fraction mentioned in no. 3. Thus my question:

What OTHER narratives or performance styles (apart from "powerful hypnotist controls the will of the hypnotees") can be applied to produce an entertaining and successful hypnosis show?
Mindpro
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On Mar 12, 2019, adrianrbf wrote:
It seems to me that each and every hypnotist, be they show hypnotists or hypnotherapist or both, agree that the general public has some strange misconceptions about what hypnosis is and how it works. There is, however, disagreement about who is responsible for these misconception.

Hypnotherapists usually claim that show hypnotists are responsible for the misconception.

My concern is to look at this in another way. My claim is that mainly the following are responsible for general misconceptions about hypnosis:
1) Movies and books that feature a "hypnotist as evil overlord" plot;
2) Weekend course hypnotists who promise completely unrealistic cures through hypnosis;
3) the fraction of show hypnotists who build their presentaton along the "powerful hypnotist controls the will of the hypnotee" narrative.

What I am actually interested in, and why I brought this up, is the presentation style of those show hypnotists who do NOT belong to the fraction mentioned in no. 3. Thus my question:

What OTHER narratives or performance styles (apart from "powerful hypnotist controls the will of the hypnotees") can be applied to produce an entertaining and successful hypnosis show?


I think there are two different things at play in your question. The hypnotherapist vs. stage hypnosis issues has little to do with public perception. These are mostly issues and concerns within the industry or in related industries (magic, comedy, mentalism, etc.)

The public perceptions are, as you stated, mostly because of the media's portrayal over the last 50-75 years, combined with a general lack of understanding. Knowing that hypnosis is a mystery to the majority of people and often filled with misconceptions to those who THINK they know something about hypnosis, it made it easy for movie makers, writers, and media producers to play off of this position and present hypnosis as something odd, mysterious, strange or unusual. Of course one of the best portrayals of this is using it as "mind control." Couple this with European history of hypnosis and even to this day its current laws and former longtime laws, it casts hypnosis in this unfavorable light. So I agree with your #1.

Your number two is initially more within the industry, but then sets these misinformed or false-belief "hypnotists" or "weekend warriors" as they have become known who take industry perception out into the public. Not good for anyone.

As far as #3, as I stated earlier the powerful mind-controlled hypnotist is something I rarely see anymore at least here int he states. What has become more popular is the "amazing power of the mind" approach or the "self-ability approach." Perhaps more NLP-based narrative. Then, of course, there are those that just use it for its comedy narrative, x-rated narrative, or "look at what's possible with hypnosis" approach.
Dannydoyle
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The possibilities are endless. Everyone should develop their own style.

Kreskin denies trance exists right before doing doing hypnosis.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
WitchDocChris
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Trilby was published in 1895. I think the "Hypnosis as mind control" trope goes back much further than 50-75 years. I would say it originated in Victorian times with Mesmer himself. Heck, there's still groups that practice Mesmerism. He made quite the impression.

I do think popular media portrayal is the main culprit when it comes to the general public's misunderstanding of hypnosis, though. Just like Witch Craft, Voodoo, and other esoteric practices. It's something all performers need to be aware of so they can correct it before it's an issue.
Christopher
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Dannydoyle
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Yes culprit is hypnotists with ego issues who want to portray it that way.

Blaming outside factors is too easy and lazy.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
WitchDocChris
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I would be willing to bet more people have seen fictional hypnotists than real ones. Going on that, it would be the media portrayal more so than the behavior of real hypnotists that would be the driving force of misconception in the general public.
Christopher
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Dannydoyle
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What exactly do you think those fictionalized portrayals are based upon? Did every writer make up the same thing or did they perhaps have similar experiences?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mindpro
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People attending a hypnosis show have an expectation based on what they've seen or heard or imagined. This combined with the known common misconceptions combined make the framework a stage hypnotists must work within.

Truth be told, just like good stand-up comedy, stage hypnosis can be one of the most amazing, interesting, pure, and fun types of entertainment performances available anywhere - of course when done by a quality, skilled and experienced hypnotic entertainer. Audiences respond unlike most anything you have experienced.

The entertainment factor and expectation can be combined to create an elevated experience.

In any given audience of mine 70-90% of my audience still may have never seen a live hypnosis show before, which offers great possibilities and opportunities for those that understand this on a deeper level and know how to utilize this greatly to their advantage.

I once worked a comedy club that was legendary. It had been around over 35 years and had some of the biggest names in comedy perform there - (Leno, Seinfeld, Romano, Mitch Hedberg, Arsenio Hall, Tom dressen, Drew Carey - A and B level celebrities as well as the top comedy names on the circuit. I performed there and at the end of one of my shows, a group of guests came up to the owner (which my video camera recorded) and said "we've been coming here for 27 years as regulars (weekly or more, which the owner of course knew) and this was absolutely the best and funniest show we have ever seen here. The Owner actually replied "Really? - Of all of the great comics we've had here?" They continued to explain YES! and explain why and what they enjoyed.

Now I say this not to claim to be better or funnier than Seinfeld, or Leno, etc. but to show how good stage hypnosis can be experienced at a much greater level than most are used to as it often exceeds even their own expectations. It is pure, gut-wrenching, laughing out loud entertainment. This rarely exists anymore in most types of entertainment, so when it does it is an elevated experience even more.

Like comedy, there is much more to it than just the performer and their material as performance dynamics greatly also play a crucial role.

I have a stroy I could tell but its to long for most to have here without backlash I'm sure, but the gest of it was that some people feel like seeing a good stage hypnosis show is an actual right of passage, which I was proud to deliver.

This is why it is so upsetting to see bad or poor hypnosis in the market, and worse yet magicians trying to confuse and diminish the perceptions in the name of a magic trick.
WitchDocChris
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Quote:
On Mar 13, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
What exactly do you think those fictionalized portrayals are based upon? Did every writer make up the same thing or did they perhaps have similar experiences?


This turns out to be a more interesting question than I first thought.

First off, I'll answer directly - I think the fictionalized portrayals are by and large based on Mesmer and his ilk, due to how Victorian writers and such portrayed them. All that 'magnetic pass' junk and Mesmer's outlandish claims really hit home with what society was craving at that time. From then on, new writers just parroted what the old writers said, because that's what the public was expecting.

There are FAR more opportunities to see fictional hypnosis than there are to see the real deal. I mean, The Mentalist (police procedural, not McCambridge's show) was hugely popular and frequently featured 'hypnosis'. Thousands of people watched that show weekly at home, whereas (at least in all the areas I've lived) hypnotists are maybe a once a year thing.

In southern central PA where I am now, Rich Guzzi is the first hypnotist I've heard of doing a show outside the Ren Fair. I've also never heard of this guy before.

So, as Mindpro is saying, people often have a preconceived notion of what hypnosis is, which is derived from a sort of cultural osmosis most likely, since they won't have seen a real hypnotist live. When they see a real live show, it will (hopefully) change their opinions and be a revelation.

However, it's possible even a live demonstration isn't going to do it. I'm reading "Magic is Dead" by Ian Frisch right now, and near the beginning he talks about Peter Turner hypnotizing a bar patron. The account he gives is, quite frankly, not possible. I've chatted with Peter in the past about how he does hypnosis and I can guarantee you, Mr. Frisch missed several critical details in this display. And before it gets mentioned - yes, I know stage hypnosis and doing hypnotic demonstrations at the bar are not the same thing to those who know the difference. But to laymen they are the same thing.

This just goes to show that even when seeing a live demonstration, the mind will still try to find an 'average' between the live experience and the expectations.

You are right in that the bad performers, of which there are many (I've never seen a full hypnosis show I enjoyed), do contribute to the perpetuation of the stereotypes and bad information, I'm sure. But I just can't imagine that the relatively rare experience of seeing a live hypnosis show could possibly be more influential than the plethora of available fictional portrayals.

I will also note that the people who write mass media portrayals are often lazy in their research. I already mentioned several examples that are almost always portrayed incorrectly. You can add to that list, Satanists, martial artists (hand to hand and fencing in particular), mental illness, musicians, magicians ... the list is extensive. Writers are perfectly happy to play the stereotype because that's what sells - the audience wants something that conforms to their pre-existing ideas because that's more comfortable than constantly being challenged on them.
Christopher
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Dannydoyle
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Where do you think new hypnotists get THEIR impression of what hypnosis should be? Or for that matter the OP?

Hypnotists have done monkey see monkey do since Mesmer! That is the point.

Hypnosis also suffers from the very crap we see on this board. Claiming crap that isn't hypnosis IS hypnosis juat so they don't "fail". Just redefine everything AS hypnosis and claim you are right.

A lack of experience and education of new hypnotists is the real issue. A generation of hypnotists looking for short cuts will kill public perception.

Now mind you none of this has ever affected me in the least. I don't care what others do, I do my show. I do about 250 of them a year. I don't think it has any affect on the art except to make well done shows in higher demand.
Danny Doyle
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Mindpro
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On Mar 13, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
I don't think it has any affect on the art except to make well done shows in higher demand.


I agree. 2/3s of the new hypnosis business we get each year at my agencies are from those that have had a bad experience with a hypnotist, but yet know and believe in the draw, attraction and appeal of good stage hypnosis. They learn a lesson very quickly realizing not all hypnotists are the same.

It's always the same old story - they usually tried to save money or cut corners by doing one of the same two things:

1. Contacting a local hypnotherapist (yellow pages, now Google) and asking them to do a show for them (just blindly assuming that since they know hypnosis that they can do a show.)

2. They look for a lower-priced, often bottom-feeder stage hypnotist which is almost always a newbie, beginner, and someone that is really a DJ or magician claiming they are also a "stage hypnotist" (who are really just self-proclaimed guys that read book, viewed a DVD or took a weekend course).

They had their bad experience, realize how damaging it was/could've been, and realized that there IS a huge difference and it is well worth the price to get a professionally skilled and experienced stage hypnotist. They learn the hard way, but I give them credit to acknowledge their mistake and the right realization. While we benefit, it is a part of the process I still wish didn't exist.

It does create a demand that many others don't realize. The problem is these guys that were the problem hypnotists have literally no idea how bad they were or how they truly perceived. Not a clue as to the perception they've created.
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I never worry about if other performers are good or bad in my view. I just do what I do and am happy to be judged by that.

There is a large part of audiences that have not seen a hypnotist before. It is always a good starting point when you set expectations yourself as opposed to having to clear up misconceptions and move on from there.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL