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Magic.J.Manuel
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Yes the description on Penguin's web site is the spectator sorts them without looking by "feeling" if they are a sexy picture or not. So I could do the same with this pile of cards to see if you can sort them by east coast -- west coast by feeling how something is different without looking.
Nothing would get done at all, if man waited so long that no one could find fault with it.
IAIN
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Do you feel an east/west coast plot is an interesting and engaging plot?
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Sudo Nimh
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Personally, I find the east vs. west thing a dreary idea. To someone who isn't an American, it also isn't immediately obvious if one state is from the east and another from the west etc. I'd say it's a step backwards because it doesn't have universal appeal and immediate recognition. Plus, why would I care about separating west states vs. east states? It just doesn't connect with me at all.

Not meant as a harsh criticism by any means, just offering an opinion. I'm just not seeing a "hook" here.

As an aside, postcards don't have to depict locales either. There are numerous shops that sell movie poster reproductions postcards and other nifty stuff like comic superhero postcards etc. If you really like the "states" thing, you could get yourself a toy car and do an imaginary "road trip" with the face-down postcards using something like Phill Smith's Quinta etc. Not saying that you should do that, but that there are so many possibilities here, really. If you think about it for a while, you should be able to come up with a ton of ideas.
Sudo Nimh
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Come to think of it...

Andy Nyman has a mental effect with gangster movie poster reproduction postcards called Killer Elite. Also a great effect.

There's also Simon Shaw's Director's Cut which uses a stack of different movie poster postcards too.

Again, not suggesting you should use these - just pointing out a few examples of effects that have been done with them. Neither of these are the OOTW effect and both are entirely different.

Maybe scout around online and see what different types of postcards are available. That might help get your creative juices flowing in the right direction. If you're really committed and get a specific idea in mind, you can also design postcards on your PC and have a commercial printer print off something more tailored to your needs.
jimgerrish
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There have been other attempts to use the OOTW scenario with picture cards, like "Krampusnacht" sorting pictures of naughty children from pictures of nice children. It sounded like a good idea, but although I got a pleasant reaction when I performed it, it was not the same as the "knock-out-gee-whiz!" reaction I get from performing OOTW with playing cards. My conclusion: some effects are best left for playing cards because they are so familiar to the audience. People are surprised when the playing cards do things in your presence that they never did before. My suggestion: come up with new effects that make sense when using picture post cards that might not make sense with playing cards. For example, I wouldn't use playing cards to choose a vacation spot or to plan a trip, but that might be a good use for picture postcards.
Magic.J.Manuel
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I do like the French postcards premise, sexy or not. It titillates just a bit! Smile
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Robb
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As Iain has pointed out, the problem with these OOTW routines where the spectator does the separating is... how? Why would they be able to do this?

I have done such routines before. First, they are mental magic at best. At worst, they fall completely flat because the spectator does not BELIEVE they did it unless you have a BRILLIANT way to convince them they did (which, let's be honest, you don't)... "Sense" doesn't work. Sense what? Really, did they "sense" anything? Never.

Occasionally you'll get a person who's really "into it" and takes the "sensing" very seriously, but then they take forever to do the task and it look absurd to everyone watching (because they essentially are watching this person trying to be the center of attention and over-acting).

Just because the subject matter is more "intriguing" doesn't change the basic fact that nobody ever really feels a thing when separating the cards nor ever believes they really did it (except in demo videos for these tricks). Since there is no plausible (or even implausible!) process at play, it's just a magic trick.
Senor Fabuloso
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Ladies and gentleman I have a number of photos of people from the past. Some of them were fine upstanding member of society while others were scoundrels and charlatans. Looking over their faces, you might get a sense of who or what kind of a person they were? Or you may think nothing of them? I know who these people were and what kind of temperament they used while among us. Together we will look at these photos and I'll try to transmit telepathically what type of person they were, by thinking good or bad. All you have to do is receive my thoughts and say out load good or bad. We will separate the photos into the good and bad piles and when done see how close we got. Now take a deep breath in and make you mind blank like you were staring at a white movie screen and in moment you will see the word good or bad flash on the screen. Just say out loud what word you see. If all goes well I will have transmitted the correct character of each photo but if we make a mistake or two, that should be expected because nobody is perfect. Lets begin.

I think a presentation like this not only share the mental capabilities of both the mentalist and subject but with maybe only 30 or so photos, could greatly speed up the demonstration.
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Robb
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Quote:
On Mar 20, 2019, Senor Fabuloso wrote:
Ladies and gentleman I have a number of photos of people from the past. Some of them were fine upstanding member of society while others were scoundrels and charlatans. Looking over their faces, you might get a sense of who or what kind of a person they were? Or you may think nothing of them? I know who these people were and what kind of temperament they used while among us. Together we will look at these photos and I'll try to transmit telepathically what type of person they were, by thinking good or bad. All you have to do is receive my thoughts and say out load good or bad. We will separate the photos into the good and bad piles and when done see how close we got. Now take a deep breath in and make you mind blank like you were staring at a white movie screen and in moment you will see the word good or bad flash on the screen. Just say out loud what word you see. If all goes well I will have transmitted the correct character of each photo but if we make a mistake or two, that should be expected because nobody is perfect. Lets begin.

I think a presentation like this not only share the mental capabilities of both the mentalist and subject but with maybe only 30 or so photos, could greatly speed up the demonstration.


Would you be doing this with a single person or multiple people? Who would determine the good/bad? Would you show each photo immediately after? And if not, why not? And with 30 photos, this would take a LONG time and prove not much more than using 20 or even 10 photos.
Senor Fabuloso
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As with the ootw method the pictures would determine there own good or bad, by having good or bad on there backs. One could at times show them to be correct but it would be anti climactic to show them all. 10 or 20 photos wouldn't be enough due again the the method. However I believe that many of your original objections, have been stayed by my posts.
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Mr Salk
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Quote:
On Mar 20, 2019, Robb wrote:
As Iain has pointed out, the problem with these OOTW routines where the spectator does the separating is... how? Why would they be able to do this?

I have done such routines before. First, they are mental magic at best. At worst, they fall completely flat because the spectator does not BELIEVE they did it unless you have a BRILLIANT way to convince them they did (which, let's be honest, you don't)... "Sense" doesn't work. Sense what? Really, did they "sense" anything? Never.

Occasionally you'll get a person who's really "into it" and takes the "sensing" very seriously, but then they take forever to do the task and it look absurd to everyone watching (because they essentially are watching this person trying to be the center of attention and over-acting).

Just because the subject matter is more "intriguing" doesn't change the basic fact that nobody ever really feels a thing when separating the cards nor ever believes they really did it (except in demo videos for these tricks). Since there is no plausible (or even implausible!) process at play, it's just a magic trick.


OOTW can absolutely be presented as a spectator "power". That's the entire conceit. They will "sense" whatever is properly planted.
It may be better suited for smaller or more intimate circles.
.


.
Robb
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Quote:
On Mar 20, 2019, Senor Fabuloso wrote:
As with the ootw method the pictures would determine there own good or bad, by having good or bad on there backs. One could at times show them to be correct but it would be anti climactic to show them all. 10 or 20 photos wouldn't be enough due again the the method. However I believe that many of your original objections, have been stayed by my posts.


Sorry, I disagree, 10 to 20 would be plenty... it’s kind of beating a dead horse after that. Anyway, it doesn’t solve the basic problem that nobody will feel they actually sensed anything. It’s the fatal flaw of all “spectator as mind reader” routines. I think we largely fool ourselves with these approaches. They may “work” but they rarely come off as more than a trick. It’s obvious why. People KNOW they can’t read minds while it’s possible that the mentalist can.
Robb
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Oh, I’ll point out that the odds of separating just 20 cards successfully is 1024 to 1... the odds of doing it with 30 is many times more than that. Therefore, the spectator is accomplishing something more impossible than what the mentalist often does!
Lemniscate
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Quote:
On Mar 20, 2019, Robb wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 20, 2019, Senor Fabuloso wrote:
As with the ootw method the pictures would determine there own good or bad, by having good or bad on there backs. One could at times show them to be correct but it would be anti climactic to show them all. 10 or 20 photos wouldn't be enough due again the the method. However I believe that many of your original objections, have been stayed by my posts.


Sorry, I disagree, 10 to 20 would be plenty... it’s kind of beating a dead horse after that. Anyway, it doesn’t solve the basic problem that nobody will feel they actually sensed anything. It’s the fatal flaw of all “spectator as mind reader” routines. I think we largely fool ourselves with these approaches. They may “work” but they rarely come off as more than a trick. It’s obvious why. People KNOW they can’t read minds while it’s possible that the mentalist can.


I agree and disagree with Robb here.

10-20 is definitely plenty, although there can be discussions of visual scope of using more (you would need clearly different images for this to be a concern of course).

Unfortunately, I have to disagree with Robb's premise that "nobody will feel they actually sensed anything." This is going to largely be down to a performer or presentational issue. Example: using a pendulum to select the items (circling, back and forth, etc.). It also ignores the idea of reframing what happened afterwards in just a "basic" separation approach. In fact, Luke Jermay's OOTW approach from Building Blocks is essentially just an exercise in anchoring, where the cards "really" are separated by "a feeling" the spectator has.

We all need to be careful from making huge generalizations (see Robb's post above for a few good examples) based on our own individual experience.
MichaelCGM
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Quote:
On Mar 20, 2019, Robb wrote:
It’s the fatal flaw of all “spectator as mind reader” routines. I think we largely fool ourselves with these approaches. They may “work” but they rarely come off as more than a trick. It’s obvious why. People KNOW they can’t read minds while it’s possible that the mentalist can.


And THIS is why the Café needs a "Love this post" button, alongside the "Like this post" button. Kudos, Robb.
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Mr Salk
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This is probably a decent topic for another thread...but I believe spectators (humanity) widely believe that they are special and have untapped potential.
It isn't a stretch to harness that common-vanity into a routine.
.


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jimgerrish
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Just ask for a show of hands of anyone in your audience who had a dream that came true, or who knew something was about to happen before it happened, or who think they MIGHT have psychic abilities. Surprise yourself.
Robb
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Yeah, personally I think that stuff sounds lovely... but doesn’t translate into the desired effect very often. I didn’t say it isn’t possible to make it happen, I just think highly unlikely. There’s a cognitive dissonance to the whole premise of “spectator as mind reader” effects and it’s not easily overcome. Without overcoming it, it remains mental magic, which is fine, but it is what it is.
Mr Salk
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Quote:
On Mar 20, 2019, Robb wrote:
Yeah, personally I think that stuff sounds lovely... but doesn’t translate into the desired effect very often. I didn’t say it isn’t possible to make it happen, I just think highly unlikely. There’s a cognitive dissonance to the whole premise of “spectator as mind reader” effects and it’s not easily overcome. Without overcoming it, it remains mental magic, which is fine, but it is what it is.


Depending on the audience and presentation, it could also be confirmation bias.
Why should the mentalist be the ONLY one with powers? Maybe we all have "The Sight".
.


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IAIN
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But then it muddies the waters and depends entirely if its a social thing, or a paid gig...

And it also needs a crystal clear reason as to how this person is doing something far bigger than knowing when the phone will ring or be thinking of a song and it plays on the radio etc...
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