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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9988 Posts 
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Lightning. I ways look at the posts of new members with interest, realizing they may be an old hand at magic.
Here I am dismayed. Your opinion is the worst advice I have ever seen posted on the Café, not just for magicians, but for living in general. Just my opinion, of course. This thread in particular is about learning to better understand what an audience expects and appreciates from a magicians. That is a different standard than the level of mastery one should achieve before inflicting yourself on them, but some standard of proficiency must be set. Your post does not even address "audience POV" at all. There are no "technical mistakes of magic" since any sense of "must be magic" cannot occur if you "really screwed up." Entertainment, maybe. Magic - no. Even worse would be any exposure of method because you screw up. Yes, the audience may cheer to cover their embarrassment, or applaud because you are finally done -- but that is not magic. Confusion is not magic. Skill demonstrations are not magic. Hiding mistakes is not magic. Yes, accidents can happen such as a prop breaking and a performer must carry on with the show - a learning experience, not a standard of excellence. But, if you even think you might screw up you should not be performing at all. Try "practice to automaticity" as a standard. I have hired many carpenters and craftsmen over the last 50 years. Your "best carpenter" would be fired on the spot.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Dick Oslund Inner circle 8357 Posts
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Quote:
On Mar 27, 2019, Mindpro wrote: YUP! PRESENTATION!!!
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
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Dick Oslund Inner circle 8357 Posts
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Quote:
On Apr 1, 2019, LightningRod wrote: Sorry, "LR". "Royally screwing up a performance", to me, means you haven't practiced enough!
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
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davidpaul$ Inner circle Georgetown, South Carolina 3094 Posts
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My wife an I were in Las Vegas about 10 years ago to see Lance Burton. We saw his show twice.
He was performing his signature routine of vanishing and appearing candle sticks as well as canes. I'm sure he has performed this routine 1000'nds of times. He screwed up and exposed the workings. He moved on as if nothing had happened (a true Pro) the audience didn't react to the mishap and it might have just gone unnoticed. It sure seemed that way to me. The show was amazing. I perform allot of close-up during the week and just yesterday screwed-up an effect I performed more times than I care to admit. ( Moser's Miracle Monte) I exposed it big time. Twice in the same routine. I just drew a blank and forgot the moves. I continued to a successful conclusion and my spectators were still amazed. I personally agree with Lightning Rod. We are not flawless. Pros make mistakes no matter what field you are in, even carpenters. We are humans not robots. If we can cover those mistakes with a change in MO (motis operundi) or showmanship or wharever, yes we have arrived. If carpenters can cover their mistakes but not compromise the structural soundness of the work, yes they are pros.
Guilt will betray you before technique betrays you!
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9988 Posts
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Perhaps I should clarify on the carpenter analogy that really does not apply to performer.
A carpenter works under a contract or agreement. The objective is a set of plans or agreement. Mistakes happen. So, the 'professional" tells the owner of the mi/stake and together they decide on a solution. Covering up a mistake without notification, irresponsible, unethical and a violation of contract. As to magic, "making a mistake," even from unprofessional lack of practice, is no the same as "ROYALLY screwed up." Human as to presentation and ability to recover from mishap - yes. As to technique - yes you should be a robot. As a better analogy consider a surgeon operating on your heart. Do you want a coverup of a mistake? Do you want someone who wings it or trying something new? No! You want confidence in a procedure this professional has performed a hundred times before. My objection is not over whether a performer can make a mistake or have an equipment failure. I fully agree that a good performer can recover and move on. The problem is telling newbies on this Café that being able to cover up is exemplary or has anything to do with magic or understanding audience POV. Then to suggest that any professional craftsman should hide an error or change from their employee is just wrong. I also think that the notion that Burton's audience did not notice because of an immediate reaction is insulting to them and to Burton. If exposing the workings of a magic effect goes unnoticed then magic as an art is truly dead. It is not a question of being flawless - it is about being accountable for your actions. The ability to learn and insure that this mistake never happens again might mean you "have arrived." Bragging about being a screwup certainly is not. The forum here is "New to Magic." What standard are you advocating for them?
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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davidpaul$ Inner circle Georgetown, South Carolina 3094 Posts
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No one said anything about bragging in regards to screwing up.
Experts in the field of medicine ( heart surgeons) sometimes fail but do everything in their power not to. Do you know the cost medical pros pay for mal practice insurance ? It happens. My wife is a medical professional and she always reviews her patient charts for anything she may have missed always. Sometimes to the point of obsession. I digress. I know where Lightning Rod is coming from. If someone new to magic "starts" the journey of performing, hopefully after they have practiced ad nauseam and studied they soon realize it'a whole different ballgame, totally, performing for real people. Nerves grab ahold of you. You get the shakes and when you make a mistake the newbie will often get embarrassed and say "Oh, I scewed up" and walk away with his or her tail between their legs. On to the pro that screws up. (It happens) The pro is skilled enough to compensate, go in a different direction or if it is unrecoverable knows how to keep his composure or make a joke of it and move on without losing the audience. (You have arrived) Aldo Colombin had a great dvd regarding it. For you to say , with all due respect, that Lightning Rod's post was the worst you have "ever" seen posted on The Café' is flat out disingenuous. You obviuosly have allot of knowledge to share here and many benefit from your posts. BUT I'm sticking up for Lightning Rod and I do agree with him. Not that I am any authority on the subject, it's just that I have been on both sides of the fence and speaking for myself, I undestand. FWIW Oh and by the way carpenters are performers as well as all the other trades. Have you ever seen carpenters in action? They are something to watch and I'm amazed at their skill and speed.
Guilt will betray you before technique betrays you!
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Kanawati Veteran user Australia 301 Posts
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There are many hobbiests who are frightened of the notion of performing in public and the fear of making a mistake and/or exposing the method. I thought LightningRod’s advice was very encouraging! I’m definitely not advocating sloppiness or downplaying how critical practice is and no where did I read that in LightningRod’s post but as we gain experience we make less mistakes. When we do make mistakes in front of real audiences we learn outs and the proper way to deal with those moments. You can’t learn those things performing in front of the mirror. So my encouragement to those just starting out is to get out there, perform your best for real people and don’t be worried about the potential that something could go wrong with the trick! Ken, you bring up very valid points and I agree with you (and for the record your observations and advice are insightful and always get me thinking) but I don’t agree with your criticism of the advice given. LightningRod and David are spot on to me. John
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9988 Posts
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OK, David and Kanawati, your last posts offer some argument that many readers here may see the advice as encouraging beginners to overcome reluctance. On review, I probably was overly influence by the use of caps, the fact that the comment had nothing to do with the theme of this thread, and an inappropriate analogy.
Yes, in comparison with sitting at home playing video games, getting out and performing anything live is a good thing. If many have a fear of "screwing up" that prevents getting serious about magic or even live human interaction, then "do it." I have my doubts that getting into magic just to overcome stage fright or other fear will ever lead to "understanding an audience" or even strong magic. Screw ups that expose method will never be OK, especially if the cause is being unpracticed or uncaring -- yet, perhaps any attempt at creating astonishment in another is a good thing regardless of the outcome. ... I could write a book of stories about carpenters and craftsmen - unusual skills and mistakes. Nothing to do with magic, cf course. Right now I am building additions to my "forever home." I am doing the carpentry myself over hiring a "skilled" carpenter. The three I interviewed could not even show up on time and NONE were interested in following my instructions or working along side of me. I thank you'all for alerting me to the real reason behind their reluctance - they want to be able to hide their mistakes 
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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davidpaul$ Inner circle Georgetown, South Carolina 3094 Posts
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Quote:
On Apr 3, 2019, funsway wrote: Wow..really? Ok then... Seriuosly good luck on your addition to your forever home. I'm sure it's very exciting for you especially when you are doing the work. When it's all done I'm sure your sense of satisfaction will be all the more greater. Good luck!! ( I know you have had severe hand disability problems for many years so my heart goes out to you tackling the work)
Guilt will betray you before technique betrays you!
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Wravyn Inner circle 3515 Posts
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After reading the OP, I am taking the question of point of view as... Is it really magical to them since the how to is obvious to me. It has nothing to do with making a mistake.
Being magicians, we are jaded with the magic we see. We don't remember the sense of wonder and amazement when witnessing even a simple magic trick like a paddle trick. I gave my opinion earlier in this topic that it breaks down to presentation... It is our presentation with that trick that we can share that feeling of wonder, no matter the simplicity of the method. When watching another magician perform, you will find that wonder when involved with the presentation. |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10606 Posts
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The comparison to musicians isn't really a direct comparison. Many magicians "fake," riff, or improvise. Precision of execution isn't always a key concern and most often they are combined in with other instruments so hitting a bad note or chord or missing it all together can be absorbed into the totality of it all. Not always so with magic. A flub can be dubbing the trick, exposure, or worse.
Again, the magic comes from the presentation, not the trick. Moves can be practiced and rehearsed (two different things). Overcoming the fear comes from the confidence of knowing your presentation and execution. It comes from the repetition. Many have said until you have performed something 10,000 times or 10 years, it is not engrained and second nature. Keep practicing and build that confidence, and get out there and perform. |
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Bob G Inner circle 2831 Posts
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I saw an almost throw-away comment in a book -- which I could remember which one -- that said, one thing that performing will help you get over is the fear that these deceptions can't possibly work!! It was either Henry Hay or Alkazar (?) (the latter is a beatiful little intro to magic for children -- but it's much more sophisticated and performance/presentation-oriented than the other kids' books I've seen).
What I get out of this is that it's quite common to feel as the OP does -- once you know the secret, you don't believe it could work. I know I feel that way. So I guess the "not believing it will work" is just a stage we probably all have to go through. Here's another viewpoint: Figuring out how a magic trick isn't so easy because it's what we mathematicians call an "inverse problem" (equivalent, I suppose to "reverse engineering"): it's much easier to learn from an explanation how to do something than to see something done and try to figure out how it was done. (Imagine being shown a car moving, and then being asked to build a car.) fwiw... |
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Ravenspur Regular user Granby, MA 167 Posts
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As someone who is just learning to do magic, but also as someone spending a serious amount of time understanding it, I'm continuously surprised by the complex interactions between the mechanics and presentation. They are really interdependent. To those who know the mechanics, it may seem that tricks are all or mostly presentation, but those of us still learning the mechanics, it's also the mechanics. Like riding a bike, once you know how to stay up, you don't have to worry much about balance or pedaling. They sort of take care of themselves. Until then, you're happy when you can balance and pedal.
As Wrayvn says, I was originally interested in how the audience can possibly not know what I'm doing, mechanically speaking. I still struggle with it. I suspect as I become more experienced with an audience, I'll understand it better. |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10606 Posts
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Quote:
On Apr 3, 2019, Ravenspur wrote: And this is only the first step. If you/anyone is thinking of performing for money, you will quickly see the mechanics vs. presentation is only the first step, the real next step is the performance vs. the business operations. Success as an entertainer (who does this for income/pay part-time or full) comes from the business behind the performance. |
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Ravenspur Regular user Granby, MA 167 Posts
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At best, I'm years away from that kind of performing.
My S.A.M. assembly has one guy who works at magic professionally combining magic and motivational speaking. A couple of others have day jobs but do some gigs. My biggest realization about performing is how little my previous experience helps in presentation. I've performed musically in front of hundreds of people. I've spoken in front of large, sometimes hostile crowds. I've been a high school teacher for 26 years. Maybe I take the effects of this experience for granted (I'm not afraid of addressing people, and I have some persona), but performing magic requires more and different skills than I have. |
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Wravyn Inner circle 3515 Posts
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Ravenspur, you say you have taught in highschool for 26 years. How have you made your classes interesting for your students? It's all in the presentation of the subject. Magic is just a different subject.
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9988 Posts
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Quote:
On Apr 3, 2019, Mindpro wrote: So true, but often magic seems to get lost in the trade off. The person paying the bill will often think they have some production control. Even a simple statement of, "My wife has always liked that rings thing" suddenly messes with your corporate gig. (not to say Linking Rings cannot be good magic) I faced this problem more than 50 years ago when deciding to "go pro" or not. Several mentors like Arnold Furst and Bert Easley dunked me in the realities. I was losing money doing kids shows from buying/making new equipment. In college frats wanted me but were tight fisted. Then came Viet Nam. The result was a decision of No! I have never charged for a performance since including tens of thousands of presentations in business consulting setting. Now we have spectators addicted to entertainment and kids making money off of exposing tricks. Entertainment - magic - money. Not a happy stew. Not suggesting any path another should follow - just do it with eyes open. Any way requires a commitment to excellence and "going beyond." What else is magic for? My hat off to those who have chosen to be entertainers, with condolences too. My only question would be, "Why, magic?" Balloon tying past better .
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Ravenspur Regular user Granby, MA 167 Posts
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Wrayvn,
Things have changed in high school. What used to entertain and interest now gets less response. I'm still entertaining in class, but it's gotten to the point where very little makes what I teach interesting to kids. Smartphones have caused a sea change in student interest, learning, and behavior. Anyone interested in the topic--and it is at least tangentially related to audiences of magic--should check this article out. It's my experience as a teacher and a parent. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc......8NsxauLs |
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Wravyn Inner circle 3515 Posts
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Yes, things have changed. IMHO though, much of what has changed is attention span.
I'm not a teacher and I don't have your lengthy experience to witness these changes on a daily basis, yet people still get caught up in a good book, a good movie, and even captivated with television shows. Sometimes a magic trick will be like a commercial, just a few moments long and people will go back to their inattentive state, other times, your audience will be ready to journey deeper and longer. Have faith in yourself and what you're doing. Just because times have changed, doesn't mean the things that work in accomplishing the tricks have. |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9988 Posts
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When I was in Second Grade every student was required to find an intriguing magic trick, strange science demonstration or optical illusion to bring to class.
This was so popular that many kids continued on that theme for "show and Tell" during the year. Our "Weekly Reader" magazine always had a magic trick or puzzle too Maybe magic can be a way of breaking this myopic, small screen view of the world. Could be too late, though, as many kids are never encourages to use imagination at home. I used magic a lot when I was a substitute teacher and can only suggest that getting a desired response does not mean you did not make n impact. You might try varying a performance with random allegory support (produce a visual aid) or offering a mental puzzle like the Red Hat problem. Get an old Cub Scout magic book and go from there.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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| The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » New to magic? » » Getting the Audience POV Right (3 Likes) | ||||||||||
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Posted: Apr 2, 2019 12:34 pm 
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