We Remember The Magic Café We Remember
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Is It Possible For Nothing To Make Something? » » TOPIC IS LOCKED (12 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page 1~2~3..7..10..13..16..19~20~21 [Next]
Cartoonist
View Profile
New user
Japan
11 Posts

Profile of Cartoonist
Is it possible for nothing to make something?

For example, is it possible for nothing to make a very simple pencil eraser?

If no, why not?
If yes, how? Specifically, what are the laws of chemistry and physics that say this is possible?

If it’s not possible for nothing to make a very simple pencil eraser, how is it possible for nothing to make an extremely complicated universe with life, planets, sun, stars, etc.?

Many undergrads, grads and grad students will say “The Big Bang.”
For any bang to occur requires three things, two separate objects and a force.

If I drop a pencil eraser onto a desk, it will result in a small bang.
The two objects are of course the pencil eraser and the desk, and I am the force releasing the eraser.

This post is not to be confused with Answer a Question with a Question, but rather, Question an Answer with a Question.
Dannydoyle
View Profile
Eternal Order
20338 Posts

Profile of Dannydoyle
Yea this is going to end up deleted.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
ed rhodes
View Profile
Inner circle
Rhode Island
2732 Posts

Profile of ed rhodes
Ya think?
"There's no time to lose," I heard her say.
"Catch your dreams before they slip away."
"Dying all the time, lose your dreams and you could lose your mind.
Ain't life unkind?"
ed rhodes
View Profile
Inner circle
Rhode Island
2732 Posts

Profile of ed rhodes
Seriously though, "Big Bang" does not refer to something from nothing. It suggests that all the matter of the universe was compressed into a single mass, which reached a critical point, and broke up into the material that would (in multiple "sagans" of time) form the galaxies, stars and planets in the Universe. The Big Bsng Theory does not go into WHERE the mass came from in the first place.
"There's no time to lose," I heard her say.
"Catch your dreams before they slip away."
"Dying all the time, lose your dreams and you could lose your mind.
Ain't life unkind?"
karnak
View Profile
Special user
Colorado
581 Posts

Profile of karnak
Not just all the matter in the universe, but space itself — its very fabric — also expanded (and is still expanding) in the wake of the so-nicknamed Big Bang (which was not an explosion but an inflation), and was certainly not “from nothing.”

So it’s not comparable to there being both a pencil and a desk (two things). There was only the one thing, which expanded. Nothing “banged into” anything else. There was nothing else to “bang into.”

Its not as if there was something that expanded into a pre-existing empty void (which would in a sense be “something else”). Space itself expanded, along with all the matter. There was only the “one thing.”

Ditto for time. Some say that prior to inflation, not only was there no such thing as “space,” but also no “time.” If neither time nor space existed prior to the Big Bang, then it makes no sense to speak of what happened “before” the Big Bang. There was no “before.”

Counter-intuitive perhaps. But then, lots of scientific facts run counter to limited human common sense.

Anyway, the universe and everything in it (including pencil erasers) did not come from “nothing.”
For a supernatural chiller mixing magic (prestidigitation, legerdemain) with Magic (occultism, mysticism), check out my novel MAGIC: AN OCCULT THRILLER at http://www.amazon.com/Magic-Occult-Thriller-Reed-Hall/dp/1453874836
Jonathan Townsend
View Profile
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
27088 Posts

Profile of Jonathan Townsend
Welcome to our aporia, Gorgias. A few clicks and the nothing can bring forth an eraser, a taxi, a transfinite number ... Smile and in your narrative it can even put whipped cream on top. No biggie. Abracadabra. Old news. Classic campfire tales now called literature. Hocuspocus? Not sure how much benefit there is in "it from bit" but maybe someday someone will find a practical application. Wishing we could usefully infer "bit from it" has led to much suffering. Let's not. Please.

Watch out for unreliable narrators. We don't quite see what's in front of us and we edit out while we blink. What little we have reasoned about the world lets us get around pretty well. And if you've got something useful to add ... please do - entropy is raising its rates these days.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Dannydoyle
View Profile
Eternal Order
20338 Posts

Profile of Dannydoyle
Matter can not be created or destroyed is that true? If so then where did all the matter in the universe come from?

(Well I guess I mean the amount of eneegy in a closed system.)

At SOME point it indeed came from nothing. Somewhere. All you have done is kicked the can down the time line.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Jonathan Townsend
View Profile
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
27088 Posts

Profile of Jonathan Townsend
In the mundane world that's fine - only entropy increases.
The big-bang model has everything much closer together and hotter long ago. Does what went up also come down - come back together again into a dense hot region ... or expand forever? https://www.geniusstuff.com/blogs/albert......bang.htm

The idea is to make up a story that fits with available evidence and see whether it predicts things we find or we get surprised some more. The early twentieth century had lots of surprises. Einstein rolled with some of the surprises and dug in his heels about others. Space and Time become Space-Time with the speed of light as a constant. Energy comes in quanta. But playing whack-a-mole with elementary particles... not his thing.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
S2000magician
View Profile
Inner circle
Yorba Linda, CA
3469 Posts

Profile of S2000magician
Quote:
On Mar 26, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
At SOME point it indeed came from nothing.

And you know this . . . how?
Dannydoyle
View Profile
Eternal Order
20338 Posts

Profile of Dannydoyle
Quote:
On Mar 26, 2019, S2000magician wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 26, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
At SOME point it indeed came from nothing.

And you know this . . . how?


Along with "mayer" in the universe I was about to question myself about this as well.

I should have asked WHERE it came from?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
S2000magician
View Profile
Inner circle
Yorba Linda, CA
3469 Posts

Profile of S2000magician
Quote:
On Mar 26, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 26, 2019, S2000magician wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 26, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
At SOME point it indeed came from nothing.

And you know this . . . how?

Along with "mayer" in the universe I was about to question myself about this as well.

But surely not about the "eneegy" in a closed system.

Right?
Dannydoyle
View Profile
Eternal Order
20338 Posts

Profile of Dannydoyle
Oh man that "e" disguised as an "r" slipped by me. It was a very clever disguise!
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
landmark
View Profile
Inner circle
within a triangle
4900 Posts

Profile of landmark
Love can make a baby;
A baby is something;
But Nothing is better than Love;
Ergo, Nothing can make something.





(Immaculately argued, I would say.)
Dannydoyle
View Profile
Eternal Order
20338 Posts

Profile of Dannydoyle
Work on misspelling more words please.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
R.S.
View Profile
Regular user
CT one day I'll have
197 Posts

Profile of R.S.
Quote:
On Mar 26, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
Matter can not be created or destroyed is that true? If so then where did all the mayer in the universe come from?

(Well I guess I mean the amount of eneegy in a closed system.)

At SOME point it indeed came from nothing. Somewhere. All you have done is kicked the can down the time line.


You can travel north up to a point. Once you arrive at the North Pole, "going north" no longer makes sense. That's sort of how to think about the universe. Once you rewind all the way back to the Big Bang/rapid inflation, it no longer makes sense to speak of a prior time or of a pre-existing space. I know, it's tough to wrap our brains around. And we may never have a fully satisfying answer. But hey, nature is under no obligation to make sense to us.


Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
TomBoleware
View Profile
Inner circle
Hattiesburg, Ms
2749 Posts

Profile of TomBoleware
Is it possible for nothing to make something? Nope. Can't be done.

Tom
"Entrepreneurs are willing to work 80 hours a week to avoid working 40 hours a week"--Lori Greiner

www.tomboleware.com
karnak
View Profile
Special user
Colorado
581 Posts

Profile of karnak
And yet, don't quantum particles constantly pop into and out of existence, even in an empty vacuum (e.g. from "from nothing")?

On the other hand, evidently even a vacuum is't really "empty" or "nothingness": it's filled with quantum energy, and all those particles blinking in and out of existence.

So maybe the answer is, there's really no such thing as "nothing" anywhere, in the first place?

In which case, "something from nothing" isn't even an issue, simply because there is no "nothing" to begin with.

And the Big Bang certainly wasn't "nothing exploding," as it's sometimes wrongly made out to be. There was certainly "something" -- the pre-existing, pre-Big Bang "singularity" -- which inflated to give birth to the universe and everything in it (including not just matter and energy, but also spacetime itself).

(Hmmmm. Wonder if there might be some patter possibilities here, for something like a "Quantum Cups and Balls" routine?)
For a supernatural chiller mixing magic (prestidigitation, legerdemain) with Magic (occultism, mysticism), check out my novel MAGIC: AN OCCULT THRILLER at http://www.amazon.com/Magic-Occult-Thriller-Reed-Hall/dp/1453874836
Dannydoyle
View Profile
Eternal Order
20338 Posts

Profile of Dannydoyle
Quote:
On Mar 27, 2019, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 26, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
Matter can not be created or destroyed is that true? If so then where did all the mayer in the universe come from?

(Well I guess I mean the amount of eneegy in a closed system.)

At SOME point it indeed came from nothing. Somewhere. All you have done is kicked the can down the time line.


You can travel north up to a point. Once you arrive at the North Pole, "going north" no longer makes sense. That's sort of how to think about the universe. Once you rewind all the way back to the Big Bang/rapid inflation, it no longer makes sense to speak of a prior time or of a pre-existing space. I know, it's tough to wrap our brains around. And we may never have a fully satisfying answer. But hey, nature is under no obligation to make sense to us.


Ron


Convenient.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
landmark
View Profile
Inner circle
within a triangle
4900 Posts

Profile of landmark
Something from nothing? Evidently you're new to NVMS...Smile
Cliffg37
View Profile
Inner circle
Long Beach, CA
2485 Posts

Profile of Cliffg37
Has anyone talked with Albert Einstein lately? How about Neils Bohr. Ok, you can argue that both of them have passed on. OK, how about Dr. Brian Greene? He is still alive and will argue the physics to this till you are blue in the face. According to him and Bohr, the answer is yes. According to Einstein... Not so much.
Magic is like Science,
Both are fun if you do it right!
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Is It Possible For Nothing To Make Something? » » TOPIC IS LOCKED (12 Likes)
 Go to page 1~2~3..7..10..13..16..19~20~21 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2020 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.23 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL